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Thread: Guide: How to Build a World Wonder

  1. #11

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    I was sitting a WW and stored my hammer inside it, a lot of" free" crop that could be eaten by the defence.
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    Overall a nice guide.
    Good information here.

    A few thoughts:


    Why wouldn't you get the MB to 20? You can take nearly 9 days off of that 34... not to mention the time you can take off the various GG, GWh, G, Wh.
    The extra 8 levels don't take all that much time to build, and pay for themselves in the long run. You say every second counts, but you're adding days to your build...
    His screenshots show a 20 MB, so it looks like that bit of wisdom is actually heeded. But yeah, his explanation of build orders starting out is a bit confusing. You start with a MB 15, so I dunno why the level 8-12 MB speeds are mentioned at all.

    As a point of interest, the starting infrastructure of a WW might be worth seeing.



    So that's:
    0 World Wonder
    15 Main building
    1 Marketplace
    20 Warehouse
    10 Warehouse
    20 Granary
    10 Granary
    5 Cranny (I'm pretty sure I hadn't started demolishing it before that screenshot).

    So notably, no rally point. You will want one of those ASAP.

    Upon taking the WW, first thing is either to get a residence (if you have an incoming attack coming in something like under 30 minutes away) in the hopes that your attacker did not send catapults to conquer the WW. Otherwise get that rally point so you can identify incomings and figure out how bad it looks, possibly IGM allies with incomings and figure out if they are betrayals or just poorly coordinated. Defense hopefully will be arriving in force seconds (or immediately) after your conquer succeeds but more information is always good.

    After you have your rally and/or residence, you will want to turn your eye to either wall, granary or main building, depending upon what your situation is.

    If you have good feeders set up already (sometimes you get lucky with a large account right on top of the WW, or people settling + golding up feeders before the WW unbans) then the granary is less of a concern. If you know someone is coming to take your WW with major force then the wall is a priority. If you have no serious incomings then you may as well work on that main building right away up to 20.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    Why wouldn't you get the MB to 20? You can take nearly 9 days off of that 34
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    His screenshots show a 20 MB, so it looks like that bit of wisdom is actually heeded.
    I only included the middle numbers due to the fact that I have frequently seen the MB targeted. It should absolutely be level 20 however.

    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    why on earth do you have Imps, Maces, Swords, Axes and TTs guarding the WW?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarasvati View Post
    Because those troops in a WW eat 1/2 wheat... I've seen several who send troops to the WW waiting to send off on their mission.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3NT View Post
    I was sitting a WW and stored my hammer inside it, a lot of" free" crop that could be eaten by the defence.
    If you manage well enough to avoid starvation its an excellent place to store a hammer That’s more advanced theory that I wasn’t looking to get into here, I just wanted an example of actual wheat consumption and reins at a WW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    If you know someone is coming to take your WW with major force then the wall is a priority.
    I beleive it should be a priority as regardless of what you expect. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You don't want to be betrayed or just have a standard enemy hammer suddenly coming in and then deciding you want a wall.

  4. #14
    Philosopher MokMonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    If you manage well enough to avoid starvation its an excellent place to store a hammer That’s more advanced theory that I wasn’t looking to get into here, I just wanted an example of actual wheat consumption and reins at a WW.
    Yeah, that was what I figured, but it should be pointed out -- if you're going to provide the SS as an example, you ought to point out the different things it shows.
    Especially since it was pretty clear there was (most of) a roman hammer there (sans the siege), but there's no reason for the 6k swords and 7k TTs or the 7k axes... Those amount of troops aren't worthy of storing there for the 1/2 consumption (and those TTs are better off feeding themselves or splatting somewhere on an enemy hammer as a mini-ghost).
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  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    there's no reason for the 6k swords and 7k TTs or the 7k axes...
    I truthfully do not recall why those particular units were there at the time so I won't debate the validity of them being stationed or not used in another matter. What I will say is they're not horrible defenders in a pinch.

    TTs defend infantry 25 and calvary 40
    Axe defend infantry 30 and calvary 30
    Swords defend infantry 35 calvary 20

    These are not great numbers BUT a spearman defends infantry at 35 (not much better than Axe), the Phalanx defends infantry at 40 (not much better than Swords),and the Praetorian defends Calvary at 35 (slightly worse than TTs and only slightly better than Axe). Now if those units were not one persons hammer but perhaps left over pieces of several hammers or raiding villages and no longer had much value offensively they could then have some value at the WW with a wall bonus and hero bonus under the right set of circumstances. This is just for the sake argument though as I do not recall the specifics.

  6. #16
    Consul Sirveri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    I truthfully do not recall why those particular units were there at the time so I won't debate the validity of them being stationed or not used in another matter. What I will say is they're not horrible defenders in a pinch.

    TTs defend infantry 25 and calvary 40
    Axe defend infantry 30 and calvary 30
    Swords defend infantry 35 calvary 20

    These are not great numbers BUT a spearman defends infantry at 35 (not much better than Axe)
    Your assessment of defensive value of units is fail.

    1) You failed to factor in the amount of defense provided FOR wheat. In which case a TT would provide half the values listed
    2) You can't take the weak stat of a defender and then compare it to the best stat of another unit legitamitly
    3) If you are going to list defense, you should compare total defense. IOW, swords have total defense of 55 while a phalanx has a total defense of 90.

    en masse, all units can be used for defense, it's irrelevant in the long run what is in the WW, because it is ALL used to defend the WW. There is a hard limit on how many spears are on the server and available to be sent to the WW, above that point additional defense is always better, and because the casualties are spread equally it reduces casualties for the better defensive units. One of the problems however with offensive troops pressed into a defensive role, is that they tend to arrive in less numbers and thus are less likely to starve due to starvation rules. Starvation hitting praets is much worse than starvation hitting axes. That said, placing a WW hammer onto a WW is actually good, because it will likely be the largest rein group, and thus be the first to experience starvation, which preserves the remaining better defensive troops.
    Last edited by Sirveri; 11-11-2010 at 04:14 AM. Reason: typo correction

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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    Also, I know you had 3M in troops there, but why on earth do you have Imps, Maces, Swords, Axes and TTs guarding the WW? By my quick count you have ~70k wheat in utterly useless troops and I'm not even counting the 75k for the EI, the 130k for the EC or the 20k for the TKs. At least those are adequate defenders (awful per wheat, tho). (And the chiefs, rams and cats all need to go as well, but their wheat-impact was too small to notice.) Taken together you had nearly 300k worth of useless defenders out of your ~3M. That's about 10% of your total upkeep.
    Just saying.
    Any wonder is going to get some annoying, fake reins from opposing alliances. As a former wonder holder, it's not worth my time to filter through the thousands of reins to find the 21 single catapults that were sent from spent hammer villages. That's likely where some of the smaller amounts of offensive troops came from.
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  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Autonomous Will View Post
    Any wonder is going to get some annoying, fake reins from opposing alliances. As a former wonder holder, it's not worth my time to filter through the thousands of reins to find the 21 single catapults that were sent from spent hammer villages. That's likely where some of the smaller amounts of offensive troops came from.
    Ctrl+F is an easy way to find the catas and clubbies etc sent from enemies.
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  9. #19
    Philosopher MokMonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirveri View Post
    Your assessment of defensive value of units is fail.
    ^this.

    I'm sure there were reasons at the time why maces or TTs were there in those quantities, but there's no justification for saying it is good for the defense... unless you had absolute knowledge that there were enough hammers on the way to zero your WW and you had no additional real defense to call on.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3NT View Post
    Ctrl+F is an easy way to find the catas and clubbies etc sent from enemies.
    Uhh... and search for what, exactly?
    "maceman" isn't something searchable. Nor is the image of the unit. And if you knew the name of the town or player, it is b/c you already found it...
    I suppose if you wanted you could go through all of the rein reports and look for the false reins and then search based on that information... but I don't think anyone actually looks at those reports considering that most WW have hundreds of incoming at any given time.
    MokMonster does not support, condone or agree with anything written in this post.
    Any suggestions to the contrary are purely unintentional.
    (Unless you agreed with it -- then I totally said it)

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    but there's no justification for saying it is good for the defense... unless you had absolute knowledge that there were enough hammers on the way to zero your WW and you had no additional real defense to call on.
    What I said was:
    “they're not horrible defenders in a pinch.”
    “they could then have some value at the WW with a wall bonus and hero bonus under the right set of circumstances.”
    This is different than saying they are good for defense. Lets argue they are for a moment, as there's no justification for not sending them in an emergeancy, and go back to Sirveri's response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirveri View Post
    en masse, all units can be used for defense, it's irrelevant in the long run what is in the WW, because it is ALL used to defend the WW. There is a hard limit on how many spears are on the server and available to be sent to the WW, above that point additional defense is always better, and because the casualties are spread equally it reduces casualties for the better defensive units.
    There's only so much D on the server and additional defense is always better. It does not mean that you have to have "absolute knowledge" because most meta do not have such insight into thier opponents (not to say it can not be gained) and "enough hammers on the way to zero your WW" falsely assumes the only way to lose is to zero a WW. So lets construct a hypothetical pinch with the right set of circumstances.

    There's a three way war, you (alliance A), an elite hard hitting raider alliance (alliance B) and a simmer meta (alliance C). Let's say that all three of you are roughly in the same spot (level 98ish), its anyones race and all but one hammer (alliance B's) has been used. Let's say that due to spies you know alliance B's hammer is good but not great and may knock down a single level of a WW and you don't know if its coming at you (alliance A) or the simmers (alliance C). All the D you can find is already at the WW and you can feed it.

    Using the screen shot available and speaking in terms of total defense you have 7947 axe (476,820 D), 5289 swords (290,895 D) and 7659 TT (497,835 D) for a total of 1,265,550 defense. A phalanx as Sirveri said has a total defensive value of 90 so divide 1,265,550 by 90 and you have the equivalent in total D terms of 14,061 Phalanx. Do you say "well I don't have absolute knowledge thats its coming to me and if it does there are not enough hammers on the way to zero my WW so I'm not going to provide a little makeshift D"? You might. I always err on the side of caution.
    Last edited by Lord Bane; 11-12-2010 at 04:57 PM.

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