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Thread: Guide to Hero Selection

  1. #41

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    Sorry but in my experience you're wrong.

    Pally heros are not ok when you put a few points on attack.. They still die!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone. View Post
    Sorry but in my experience you're wrong.

    Pally heros are not ok when you put a few points on attack.. They still die!
    Maybe it's you.

  3. #43

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    Do you think I abuse them so they commit harakiri?

  4. #44
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    From the tone of your recent posts, yes.

    Pally heroes can go with TK raids. TK heroes can't go on pally reins without slowing everything down. Pallies are cheaper and faster to rebuild, they're the ONLY unit that doesn't take at least one travel speed off the table, and there's absolutely no difference in the percentage bonuses, which are the only stats that matter.
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  5. #45

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    But why listen to the experienced players? Apparently Stone is the expert and is wise beyond our years of experience.

    The fastest hero is the best hero. This has been discussed 500 times on these forums. Anyone who has been in real alliance battles will know this is true.

    You want hero points, get your hero as fast as you can to as many battles as you can. You want oases and still fight battles. You need a fast hero.

    Everything else can be balanced out with hero points except speed.

  6. #46

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    I still hold that in some cases a very aggressive account can do well with an infantry hero for the faster revival times, but I will grant that this is the exception rather than the rule and anyone who is going that route does not need a guide on the matter.

    So, if you have to ask or have any uncertainty then get your fastest unit as your hero.

    If your hero is dying too often though usually you are doing something wrong.

  7. #47

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    In T4 all this hero... confusion will finally be put to rest.
    Also, all other game-related confusion will be put to rest as well. So many people are just going to log in, send hero on adventures, log out for the day.
    Excuse me for disagreeing that your degeneracy is sacred.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Wren's Guide to Picking Heroes


    For all players: 'Balanced' heroes are never a good idea. Trying to build a hero that is both offensive and defensive at the same time is to build a hero that's bad at both.

    I'm a casual player, and I'm only involved in battles every once in a while, what should I look for?
    For players that don't plan to either build up armies that number thousands or kill enough enemies to take a hero up to high levels, the individual statistics may be the best. So, offensive players should pick an offensive unit and level up its attack and defensive players should pick a strong defender and level it up.

    Speed is a great bonus, but phalanx and imperian heroes have been used effectively. The cav heroes, while much faster, do cost more to revive.

    I'm a superstar, and I want to make sure that my hero is up to par, what do I need to worry about?
    Speed is the most important factor, period. Second most important is to use the def-bonus and off-bonus, as even 2-5% of a standard big army is way more than even 100 points to a hero's individual statistics.

    Factors to think about:
    Individual stats - Frankly, they don't matter at all. You will use the % bonuses and they're way more important than that other stuff.
    I want to have the highest lvl'ed hero and I want a zillion attackers gold medals

    Always chose the strongest cav. unit. Individual bonuses attk. and reg. are king. Spread about evenly until reg is so high, the hero almost fully regenerates on its way back from clearing an oasis. From there its pure attk. This way you get your hero and attack points for free as the oasis dishes out more rez than you lose - and the hero can clean out the def for free in smaller farms too.

    There is an initial investment in accompanying infantry to build the hero strong enough to operate on its own. It's therefore advisable to go with a TK hero. But of course, an EC hero is the more impressive. Just very expensive in the initial phase. A super EC hero is for the dreamer.

    And yes, it works. My hero is and does/will do the above on us3

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD70 View Post
    But why listen to the experienced players? Apparently Stone is the expert and is wise beyond our years of experience.

    The fastest hero is the best hero. This has been discussed 500 times on these forums. Anyone who has been in real alliance battles will know this is true.

    You want hero points, get your hero as fast as you can to as many battles as you can. You want oases and still fight battles. You need a fast hero.

    Everything else can be balanced out with hero points except speed.
    That's right, get abusive. "anyone who's been involved" blah blah blah..

    I have played nothing but offensive teuton for the last 2 years at least so I do know something about teuton heroes thanks.

    The fastest hero is NOT always the best hero. Sorry but pallys are NOT as strong in offence as TKs.

    IF you play defence then I'd agree pallys would be a good choice.

    As for fighting battles.. If you're hero is faster than your offense troops.. It has to wait for them!!!

    Someone mentioned same % - this is true but early on the pally hero is prone to die. I've had it happen in two games where I opted for a pally hero. In almost EXACTLY the same circumstance as I'd used previous (and subsequent) TK heros.

    Everyone having a go at me- have you actually had TKs and Pally heroes or are you just telling me what you, "think" should be the case? Cos.. what's you assume and reality don't always match.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I still hold that in some cases a very aggressive account can do well with an infantry hero for the faster revival times, but I will grant that this is the exception rather than the rule and anyone who is going that route does not need a guide on the matter.

    So, if you have to ask or have any uncertainty then get your fastest unit as your hero.

    If your hero is dying too often though usually you are doing something wrong.
    ^This

    Quote Originally Posted by Erbal_ View Post
    In T4 all this hero... confusion will finally be put to rest.
    Also, all other game-related confusion will be put to rest as well. So many people are just going to log in, send hero on adventures, log out for the day.
    And ^This.

    /this

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone. View Post
    The fastest hero is NOT always the best hero. Sorry but pallys are NOT as strong in offence as TKs.
    Nobody said they were. What they did say is that, overall, speed is more important than individual atk stats, for most people, in most circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone. View Post
    As for fighting battles.. If you're hero is faster than your offense troops.. It has to wait for them!!!
    This is a straw man argument. The advantage of speed is that your hero can get around quickly on his own (take an oasis, solo a farm, etc). I'm not sure how having to wait for the hammer when it's rolling is a disadvantage, other than that perhaps if you don't plan on moving your hero solo, then the speed is wasted. But I can't imagine playing a server without sending my hero many places by himself.

    When cats are rolling, every hero has to wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone. View Post
    Someone mentioned same % - this is true but early on the pally hero is prone to die. I've had it happen in two games where I opted for a pally hero. In almost EXACTLY the same circumstance as I'd used previous (and subsequent) TK heros.
    The TK will have almost 3x the offense of the Pally for the same atk points assigned. You can't treat them the same way. You seem like a player that would rather have the atk than the speed. That's cool. The guide is meant to give the best advice to the most people; there will always be some dissenters but doesn't mean the guide is wrong.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Nameless One View Post
    And yes, it works. My hero is and does/will do the above on us3
    Sure, but it's FAR from the best way to use a hero.
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    From the tone of your recent posts, yes.

    Pally heroes can go with TK raids. TK heroes can't go on pally reins without slowing everything down. Pallies are cheaper and faster to rebuild, they're the ONLY unit that doesn't take at least one travel speed off the table, and there's absolutely no difference in the percentage bonuses, which are the only stats that matter.
    Several updates ago, hero's attack points gave them a lot more points. It seemed like ever point added was multiplied by the number of attack point from the troop type itself. You could clear small defenses and oases with a TK hero with little problem.

    Since attack a hero's attack points are of little relevance, I usually go with the fastest troop type available and stick with it, regardless of expense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeroz View Post
    Idiot.

    It's a game, treat it as such.
    Quote Originally Posted by horse View Post
    I swear to God you are the most frustrating and irritating person I've encountered in over 3 years of posting here. Do I sound like the kind of person that would struggle to understand something, do I come across to you as being below averagely dim ?

    I'd even believe you are being obtuse on purpose.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Rambo View Post
    Several updates ago, hero's attack points gave them a lot more points. It seemed like ever point added was multiplied by the number of attack point from the troop type itself.
    It still works that way (until T4).
    However, by the time you could max out your attack points your pally hero has 6485 and your TK hero has 12940. Neither # is particularly impressive in light of the simple fact that having a 20% boost to your troops is far, far better. The % boost will give 2k maces an extra 16000 attack, which is ~33% more than the TK hero has.
    MokMonster does not support, condone or agree with anything written in this post.
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  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by MokMonster View Post
    It still works that way (until T4).
    However, by the time you could max out your attack points your pally hero has 6485 and your TK hero has 12940. Neither # is particularly impressive in light of the simple fact that having a 20% boost to your troops is far, far better. The % boost will give 2k maces an extra 16000 attack, which is ~33% more than the TK hero has.
    Wouldn't it give 20800 extra attack if your blacksmith upgrade is 20, since maces go up to 52 attack? Or do those blacksmith points not get multiplied by the hero bonus?
    Excuse me for disagreeing that your degeneracy is sacred.

  16. #56

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    Upgrades and hero bonuses are additive, not multiplicative. So hero does not affect upgrade bonuses.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erbal_ View Post
    Wouldn't it give 20800 extra attack if your blacksmith upgrade is 20, since maces go up to 52 attack? Or do those blacksmith points not get multiplied by the hero bonus?
    I believe Erik is correct in his statement that the bonuses don't stack that way.

    But either way my point is that having points in your hero's personal attack is not nearly as good as having the bonus %. The extra 6455 attack points you get from a maxed TK hero vs a maxed pally hero very quickly becomes meaningless.
    MokMonster does not support, condone or agree with anything written in this post.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Upgrades and hero bonuses are additive, not multiplicative. So hero does not affect upgrade bonuses.
    What's your source on that?
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  19. #59

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    And I get neg repped by someone too lame to sign their name for stating that TKs ARE nicer heros imho than pallys.

    And I do prefer them so there.

    Has the person who neg repped me had both pally and TK heros?

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    What's your source on that?

    Woden's first post in the travian formulas and calculations thread states it.

    I just ran some tests in kirilloid's combat sim however and the results seemed to indicate that hero bonus is multiplicative rather than additive. Hrm.

    100 units with full upgrades and a hero with 20% bonus or attack number gave equal damage to 120 equivalent units with an identical hero except 0% bonus. If it was additive then the 120 units without the bonus should fare better than the 100 with the bonus.


    P.S. Aside: TK/EC/Haed heroes are for noobs. Not worth it. Go either fastest horsie or cheap infantry.
    Last edited by Erik; 02-03-2011 at 12:38 AM.

  21. #61
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    I think I actually did the tests on that myself and worked with kirilloid to implement them. The PMs are lost forever.
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  22. #62

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    So what's the final verdic, multiplied or added?
    Excuse me for disagreeing that your degeneracy is sacred.

  23. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erbal_ View Post
    So what's the final verdict, multiplied or added?
    Ehhh, dunno. If I had to choose between my sources so far, I'll lean toward evidence obtained via kirilloid since their simulator seems pretty dead-on in most cases. So it does seem that the case for hero bonus being multiplicative has the strongest evidence.

    Heck, it is entirely possible that a few years ago in an older version of Travian when Woden's post was written it was true that heroes had additive bonuses and now they are multiplicative (perhaps in response to removing the gold +10% bonuses which *were* multiplicative). Seems like the kind of change that they might slip in without notifying anyone.

    If I had an account right now I could test it empirically, but that's out.

  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erbal_ View Post
    So what's the final verdict, multiplied or added?
    Hmmm...

    Here's what I did -- I sent 1k Imps against 2k phal (equal pop, no wall, no def hero, EI hero 0 attack points)
    First I established that Lvl 16 upgrades the same as having a 19% hero boost (83.3) and would generate similar results:
    1000 @ L16 + 0% = 940 dead Imps
    1000 @ L0 + 19% = 941 dead Imps

    Then I simulated an extra 19% to the AP by adding 20% more Imps:
    1190 @ L16 + 0% = 868 dead Imps
    1190 @ L0 + 19% = 869 dead Imps

    Then I checked the 1k Imps and gave them both bonuses:
    1000 @ L16 + 19% = 729 dead Imps

    Make of it what you will.
    MokMonster does not support, condone or agree with anything written in this post.
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  25. #65

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    Ehhhh, Mok... despite having run several simulations, none of those are sufficient tell you whether the hero bonus is multiplicative or additive with the upgrades. Also, since kirilloid lets you test without inputting the hero as any particular unit, you do not need to introduce that confounding element. Anywho, I already outlined how ya do it for testing sims.

    To test that you have to run 2 tests:
    A with upgrades and with a hero bonus equal to n%.
    B with upgrades, no hero bonus, and n% extra number of troops.

    results:
    A) 10k imp, lvl 20, hero 20% bonus vs 2k phal =69.3% dead.
    B) 12k imp, lvl 20, hero 0% bonus vs 2k phal =69.3% dead.

    If it is multiplicative then there should be no difference between having 20% more troops with upgrades versus having 20% more bonus. If it is additive then it is more effective to have more troops than to have the hero bonus.

    By dabbling with smaller numbers (1k vs 1.2k) I was able to get the % to differ by 0.1% but that may have just been a rounding difference or something. Seems like damage is equal on sims, which means hero bonus is multiplicative according to kirilloid's figures. Only better way to make certain is test it is in game.

  26. #66

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    Woden's post is wildly inaccurate. He ran his tests assuming a 1.5% upgrade per BS/Armory level. When the numbers didn't work out for a multiplicative bonus he assumed the additive bonus, when in fact it was the incorrect BS/armory numbers that threw the data off. I always thought it was odd that it was still stickied after Wren copied Kirilloid's calculation post over here.

    As for hero attack points, at some point the % bonus started affecting the hero itself (I think it was one of those quiet 3.6 changes). This is still not shown in Kirilloid's calculator, so solo heroes with high % bonuses will do a bit better than sims indicate.

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