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Thread: The Comey Trainwreck

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    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    Default The Comey Trainwreck

    Is it just me, or are the reactions from the WH getting really weird now? All the contradictions, I expect from an incompetent team, but this "he better not have recorded it" is sounding really paranoid now.

    Can some give me a simple explanation of who is allowed to record who/what and under what circumstances. I thought you needed a warrant to record someone else officially. Can you record your own conversations with someone else, and would that extend to official meetings or just private ones?

    Leading to... if that dinner was recorded and it leaks, what next? If Trumps team (or someone else) are recording things in the Oval Office, who can get those recordings? Why would Trump do that anyway?
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Is it just me, or are the reactions from the WH getting really weird now? All the contradictions, I expect from an incompetent team, but this "he better not have recorded it" is sounding really paranoid now.
    That's because the present administration is, whether you agree with its policies or (as is more likely, given that you are a human being) not, objectively hilariously incompetent.

    In light of that incompetence, you have to wonder whether it's intentionally opaque or just incompetence.

    My predisposition runs along the lines of "yeah ok Trump is obviously corrupt," and "it would be totally in Trump's character to do something like fire Comey because Comey was independent, and even "it's objectively within any president's interest to disdain independent powers and seek loyalty from agency heads." (This is an opinion drawn from some study of Richard Neustadt's Presidential Power, which I highly recommend for anyone looking to understand how presidential power functions in the contemporary era). The upshot of this is that I'd tend to believe that Trump is corrupt and power hungry, but that it's unlikely that anything he's done as a result is technically illegal. Also, it's not obvious that Trump is any worse than Reagan was, just yet. And we survived Reagan. Or... most of us did, anyway. Those gays who died of aids didn't count as people anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Can some give me a simple explanation of who is allowed to record who/what and under what circumstances. I thought you needed a warrant to record someone else officially. Can you record your own conversations with someone else, and would that extend to official meetings or just private ones?
    FDR was the first president to covertly record conversations, because he was upset about an NYT article that he thought unfairly quoted him. (1)

    Presidents through Nixon did this habitually, but due to the fact that this practice literally brought down the Nixon administration, it's been considered... not-advisable... for presidents to do this. (Since both the Legislative and Judicial branches have the power to subpoena those tapes.) As such, I find it difficult to believe that even an administration as incompetent as this one would tape and hold onto the tapes of something criminal, but you never know.

    That said, the President violates no laws or strictures if he records his every conversation with everyone, surreptitiously or not. I believe Ben Rhodes was asked about whether Obama did it, and he said something like "we never did it secretly," but I can't find the source on this.

    Short answer: the President can do this whenever/wherever/with whomever.

    As for the rest of us, I'm not positive about the laws, but I am pretty sure that unless there's a legal agreement not to do so, we are all allowed to do so. For things with legal import, such as when a company is signing you up for a contract over the phone or you are giving a statement, permission must be asked, although I believe this is largely just to alert the person being recorded that they are on record.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Leading to... if that dinner was recorded and it leaks, what next? If Trumps team (or someone else) are recording things in the Oval Office, who can get those recordings? Why would Trump do that anyway?
    I believe I addressed these questions above, but to recap:
    1) what's next depends upon what the tapes had on them -- I maintain that there is unlikely to be anything illegal overtly on the tapes, so likely nothing really happens except successful gaslighting on the part of the Trump administration, as it continues to implement its horrendous policies without taking up the headlines, which are concerned with more ridiculous stories,
    2) both the judicial and legislative branches have the power to subpoena the tapes. In the age of Nixon, it was the legislative branch that uncovered criminal and treasonous activity through this use, but in our partisan times (where Conservative media is still parroting bizarrely detached reflections of some alternate reality), I see it as unlikely that the GOP will choose democracy over partisan loyalty in the near future. (And they control both houses of Congress.) So if the tapes exist (which I doubt), it's basically up to the courts to exercise their subpoena powers.
    3) He wouldn't, unless he was intentionally trying to sink his own presidency (possible) or he was an idiot (also possible). But as I have said, I find it unlikely that tapes exist.

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    So what is his threat to Comey about them? If Comey recorded their meeting privately, would it be legal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    So what is his threat to Comey about them?
    Idk. Any attempt at analyzing the activities of a lunatic is bound to lead you to lunacy, so I suggest not trying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    If Comey recorded their meeting privately, would it be legal?
    Potentially no, depending on the nature of the conversation.

    The classification of information falls under Executive authority, specifically EO13526. Depending on the nature of the conversation, the unauthorized copying, transport, and storage of that information could potentially be a crime. (Presidents are exempt from this rule, as they can declassify anything they want merely by behaving as though it is unclassified.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Is it just me, or are the reactions from the WH getting really weird now?
    It is just you.

    The reactions from "journalists" are really weird. All the big stories that came out afterwords were complete fabrications. There was the Comey asked for more resources story -- complete fabrication denied by DOJ and the FBI after the story came out.

    Rosenstein, the deputy AG, was considering quitting/threatened to quit. He came out and said that is a complete fabrication.

    Trump is interfering with the investigation story -- FBI said that was a complete fabrication.

    Trump lied when he said Comey told him he was not under investigation -- Comey specifically confirmed this to Diane Feinsten and Chuck Grassley.

    Hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    It is just you.

    The reactions from "journalists" are really weird. All the big stories that came out afterwords were complete fabrications. There was the Comey asked for more resources story -- complete fabrication denied by DOJ and the FBI after the story came out.

    Rosenstein, the deputy AG, was considering quitting/threatened to quit. He came out and said that is a complete fabrication.

    Trump is interfering with the investigation story -- FBI said that was a complete fabrication.

    Trump lied when he said Comey told him he was not under investigation -- Comey specifically confirmed this to Diane Feinsten and Chuck Grassley.

    Hilarious.
    I'm specifically talking about the WH reactions. Nothing to do with the press. The changing of stories and his tweets.

    I expect the press to print partisan bollocks.

    Walk past them, and go with the actual evidence. The words they actually said and tweeted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Is it just me, or are the reactions from the WH getting really weird now? All the contradictions, I expect from an incompetent team, but this "he better not have recorded it" is sounding really paranoid now.

    Can some give me a simple explanation of who is allowed to record who/what and under what circumstances. I thought you needed a warrant to record someone else officially. Can you record your own conversations with someone else, and would that extend to official meetings or just private ones?

    Leading to... if that dinner was recorded and it leaks, what next? If Trumps team (or someone else) are recording things in the Oval Office, who can get those recordings? Why would Trump do that anyway?
    He means Obama's wiretapping. Obama has a history of such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    So what is his threat to Comey about them? If Comey recorded their meeting privately, would it be legal?
    I think recording (video and/or audio) without consent is illegal, and the law criminalizes such act!
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    He means Obama's wiretapping. Obama has a history of such.
    So, you mean the security services recording of foreign agents under suspicion and who they spoke to? Why would that capture a trump/Comey conversation?
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    and apparently wikileaks are offering $100k for Trump-Comey tapes, and/or offering to hire Comey... according to some news headlines!

    Quote Originally Posted by Avicenna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    I
    Can some give me a simple explanation of who is allowed to record who/what and under what circumstances. I thought you needed a warrant to record someone else officially. Can you record your own conversations with someone else, and would that extend to official meetings or just private ones?
    Generally speaking you are allowed to record any conversation that you are physically present at or participating in. Recording a conversation between 2 individuals without their knowledge/consent is a felony in most places.

    http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/reco...-conversations

    Federal law permits recording telephone calls and in-person conversations with the consent of at least one of the parties. See 18 U.S.C. 2511(2)(d). This is called a "one-party consent" law. Under a one-party consent law, you can record a phone call or conversation so long as you are a party to the conversation. Furthermore, if you are not a party to the conversation, a "one-party consent" law will allow you to record the conversation or phone call so long as your source consents and has full knowledge that the communication will be recorded.

    In addition to federal law, thirty-eight states and the District of Columbia have adopted "one-party consent" laws and permit individuals to record phone calls and conversations to which they are a party or when one party to the communication consents.
    So under federal law he's okay if he recorded it. There are 11 states that require the consent of both parties and the District of Columbia is not one of them:

    The District of Columbia's wiretapping law is a "one-party consent" law. DC makes it a crime to record a phone call or conversation unless one party to the conversation consents. See D.C. Code 23-542. Thus, if you operate in DC, you may record a conversation or phone call if you are a party to the conversation or you get permission from one party to the conversation in advance.
    However, given that Comey was in California when he got fired, and if he recorded that conversation he could get in a lot of trouble that way:

    California's wiretapping law is a "two-party consent" law. California makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation. See Cal. Penal Code 632. The statute applies to "confidential communications" -- i.e., conversations in which one of the parties has an objectively reasonable expectation that no one is listening in or overhearing the conversation.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

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    Well, I meant the conversation that Trump is worried about, which was in Washington at dinner. Comey says trump asked for his loyalty and he refused. Trump says he didn't. The tape would tell. I hope it comes out. Either way, it's better if we know who is lying. If it's Comey, it goes some way to justifying his dismissal (sort of). If it's trump, he needs to go. Soon.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Well, I meant the conversation that Trump is worried about
    Delicious wishcasting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Delicious wishcasting.
    James Comey better hope that there are no "tapes" of our conversations before he starts leaking to the press!

    Which conversation is that then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    James Comey better hope that there are no "tapes" of our conversations before he starts leaking to the press!
    That is him pointing out Comey would be scared, not Trump. You really don't know how to read, do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    That is him pointing out Comey would be scared, not Trump. You really don't know how to read, do you?
    You do know what a leak is?
    And.. since almost every time he tweets it is at best obfuscation it's hard to tell what he means. Ever.
    Last edited by Rokchick; 05-13-2017 at 12:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    You do know what a leak is?
    But Trump is implying he has tapes that would stop Comey from lying....

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    But Trump is implying he has tapes that would stop Comey from lying....
    Is he? I'm glad you can read his mind. I heard a threat to someone about testify. There's a term for that.

    There ya go Blaze. It's trump that is bugging things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Is he?
    Yes.

    I hope he did, but it is probably just Trump trolling again.

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    You are OK with that right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    You are OK with that right?
    I'm OK with him recording his conversation if he did. Not so much with the public intimidation of a witness.

    Poll: Majority of Americans Doubt Trump Capable of Operating Tape Recorder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    I'm OK with him recording his conversation if he did. Not so much with the public intimidation of a witness.

    Poll: Majority of Americans Doubt Trump Capable of Operating Tape Recorder
    You were OK with it when Trump was the victim of intimidation and he was a presidential nominee at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Well, I meant the conversation that Trump is worried about, which was in Washington at dinner. Comey says trump asked for his loyalty and he refused. Trump says he didn't. The tape would tell. I hope it comes out. Either way, it's better if we know who is lying. If it's Comey, it goes some way to justifying his dismissal (sort of). If it's trump, he needs to go. Soon.
    If he recorded that conversation (e.g. had his cellphone's recording feature active while they were talking) as far as I can tell from what I've read he can't get in trouble for it. There might be some kind of special exemption or clause that makes it illegal to record private conversations between government officials even if one of the parties recording is one of the officials involved. If there is such a clause applicable to this case I'm not able to find it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    You were OK with it when Trump was the victim of intimidation and he was a presidential nominee at the time.
    Do you really not see the difference or are you just trolling?
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    Oh, so it's different now? Incidentally, you say he is publicly intimidating a witness but I would argue that he just wants the truth told. I know, I know, you people don't like the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
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    Trump was a voluntary presidential nominee. He was being held to account by those who disagree enormously with his (lack o) policy. Comey is a public servant investigating him who has been fired mid investigation. Also about to be called to give testimony about said president. Not only is there a complete differemce in target type, there is a complete difference in circumstance. Trump fired him. See the difference now?

    But either way, I just want the truth, even if it is the opposite of what I think it will be. In a way I hope it is. The idea of the Russians in the white house is horrific.
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    Lol.. what? Are you kidding?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    The idea of the Russians in the white house is horrific.
    See russian can get in the white house no problem, as american can get in the kremlin no problem.



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    One of the photos released by the kremlin, I see.
    WH Showing yet more incompetence.
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    It's a shame we can trust Russian media more than our own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    It's a shame we can trust Russian media more than our own.
    You mean your own that wasn't allowed in? But yeah. If it wasn't for the Russian photos we wouldn't know who was there. The WH didn't tell you.
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    Don't care, last time he had American media in there they reported that he had two scoops of ice cream. I'm not interested in his ice cream intake, didn't care about Bidens either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
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    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    Don't care, last time he had American media in there they reported that he had two scoops of ice cream. I'm not interested in his ice cream intake, didn't care about Bidens either.
    Out of all the things to report about in the going ons of the White House they choose icecream? That is incredulous. How is that even news? I'm honestly flabbergasted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    Out of all the things to report about in the going ons of the White House they choose icecream? That is incredulous. How is that even news? I'm honestly flabbergasted.
    It was a piece on what having dinner in the White House with the president is like, and included the detail that when dessert was served, Trump got two scoops of ice cream and everyone else only one. Which is, as an isolated item, rather insignificant, but if you choose to see it as a small indication of a behavioural pattern, might be of interest.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    Out of all the things to report about in the going ons of the White House they choose icecream? That is incredulous. How is that even news? I'm honestly flabbergasted.
    Yeah, it's getting dumb now. Although most reports I saw were just mood lightening. I suspect even the media is getting a bit numb with all the real news around. The voter disenfranchisement issue has not seen a lot of light, and I would have thought that more important at a fundamental level than a lot of the shade thrown at the orange idiot. Sure he's very easy to find fault in, but unless or until he's impeached there's other issues to be focused on. CNN talking incessantly about the russian links isn't helping the investigation any more. When they get real new info that the investigation doesn't have, sure. Multiple opinions from those who don't make decisions is a bit redundant.

    However, a lot of Rep reps are getting heat from their voters now about AHCA and the Comey firing, so I guess, in a democracy it's all fuel.

    But it is nice to wake up to no more scandal. I assume he's off playing golf or something this weekend. Or he's lost his phone.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    However, a lot of Rep reps are getting heat from their voters now about AHCA and the Comey firing
    False.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    Out of all the things to report about in the going ons of the White House they choose icecream? That is incredulous. How is that even news? I'm honestly flabbergasted.
    Yeah. And they wonder why they aren't taken seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    Yeah. And they wonder why they aren't taken seriously.
    Well in that case, they weren't trying to be taken seriously. It was pretty obvious with the talk about Obama and trump Impeachmint flavours.
    Just like the media needs to settle down, you need to settle down too. Or at least choose your targets better. Or get better fitting outrage undies.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  39. #39
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    obama and Trump
    How dare you mention Trump and obama at the same time.

  40. #40
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    I should settle down and not respond to attacks on our president?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

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