View Poll Results: You're in a serious long term relationship with an imperfect human, and your view is:

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11. You may not vote on this poll
  • Improving / changing over time is the most important when dealing with imperfection

    1 9.09%
  • Acceptance is the most important when dealing with imperfections

    2 18.18%
  • A mix, but with an emphasis on improving.

    1 9.09%
  • A mix, but with an emphasis on acceptance

    3 27.27%
  • Pure neutral / neither / other

    0 0%
  • Betty White / Nobody Likes TB

    4 36.36%
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Thread: Random Friday Question 4.0

  1. #1
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Default Random Friday Question 4.0

    No philosophy this time! This time, people. So no text walls from me .

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    Last edited by The Burninator; 03-24-2017 at 01:39 PM.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  2. #2
    Senator Meherrin's Avatar
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    Could be my age talking, but sone things folks just aren't able to change all that easily, and though you may try, and support each other in that attempt, sometimes acceptance makes the difference in making things work where changing does not.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  3. #3
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    I don't know. I feel that it goes both ways. Over the years, on the one hand we've both had to do a lot of self-reflection and changing because it seemed that after the first couple years some of our habits that we've had most of our lives (verbal tics, stupid little things like leaving my steeltoes in front of the easy chair etc) got more and more and more annoying to the point of being unbearable. And it takes a lot of humility and vulnerability to tell the other person that X thing they do annoys the piss out of her/me and she/I can't state why; it just does. And it takes humility and vulnerability to try to change those things for the sake and health of the other.

    So...both, I guess? Certain things just get way more annoying and they're disproportionate to the greater relationship but our abilities to handle those things and deal with them as a couple also grow alongside the inflating annoyance level.

    People are weird. End of story. :P
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  4. #4
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    You can change little things like where you put your shoes, but people are how they are. Get used to it.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  5. #5
    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
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    No one is perfect!

    No one does not change over time!

    Was acceptance not there already?!?

    Respect is probably most important!
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  6. #6
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Obviously both are important in the right context.

    I just always go for improve first because I feel like acceptance of something is for people I don't care as much about. In other words, if I don't like you a lot, and you do something dumb all the time, I'm likely to think "whatever." But if I like you I'm more likely to say "hey, I see what you're doing, and I was wondering why you did it this way rather than that one?"

    Maybe this is the reverse of Meherrin's disclaimer -- maybe this is because of the relative age of me and my relationships.

    Lurk has he kinds of things I'm thinking of down, though, and I'd say "people suck" rather than "people are weird," but hey, that's just me .

    I was also wondering about more major lifestyle choices too though, Lurk. It's those that make me wonder this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    You can change little things like where you put your shoes, but people are how they are. Get used to it.
    Idk, this bugs me. I've changed lots since I was 18. I feel like if I stay just as I am now forever that'd be kind of a failure.

    I see you're a "people never really change" person though?
    Last edited by The Burninator; 03-17-2017 at 12:40 PM.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  7. #7
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    Well, maybe I forget how young most of you are. You do change a lot until mid 20s or so, but I really dont think what other people think or say drives it all that much. Or no single person anyway. Everyone evolves, but personally I think if someone tried to change me, I'd do the exact opposite. If I could give all you young 'uns advice, it would be - people don't really change. Learn to love what you have, you wont change it. If it annoys you, it will break you up. If someone tries to change you, you will end up resenting it.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  8. #8
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    I hope I'll prove you wrong Rok; I don't want to be that psychologically well-defended. By this I mean if someone whose opinion I respect tells me I'm doing something wrong or thinking about something wrong, I always want to be the kind of person capable of seeing merit in that, and being able to recognize when they're right. So I'll get back to you several years from now if I remember.

    But anyway, if you wanted to say some people never change, then sure, that's about right.

    Other opinions on this?
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  9. #9
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    (for the record: I've passed the 20's mark. Thanks though Rok =) )

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I hope I'll prove you wrong Rok; I don't want to be that psychologically well-defended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    And it takes a lot of humility and vulnerability to tell the other person that X thing they do annoys the piss out of her/me and she/I can't state why; it just does. And it takes humility and vulnerability to try to change those things for the sake and health of the other.


    People are weird. End of story. :P
    In all seriousness....My very basic guide to marriage, if you're interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    But anyway, if you wanted to say some people never change, then sure, that's about right.

    Other opinions on this?
    Well, when you get new information that adds to your knowledge, and you work them, they changes you a bit, and unless you are dead you cannot change!

    even if you live alone inside a closet or over a mountain, you change!

    Quote Originally Posted by René Descartes
    I think, therefore I am [, therefore I change]
    Fixed for that guy!
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  11. #11
    Senator Meherrin's Avatar
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    Yes, people do change over time. We learn, evolve, grow. We can - at least most of us - change small things fairly easily, like where you leave your shoes or putting the toothpaste back in the cabinet or all those other habits we often pick up when living on our own and being accountable to no one. If habits of this sort irritate one's partner, it is only considerate to change them, or find compromises that work for everyone. At the same time, if something at this level is bothering you so much that it's stressing the relationship - then odds are there's actually something larger and more serious that's stressing the relationship and you ought to try o find out what it is and work on it.

    Then there's stuff that's annoying to your partner but an entrenched part of one's nature. Being habitually late. Getting so absorbed in what you're doing that you forget everything else. Being stingy. Being a collector, or the opposite. These things are actually hard to change. You can try, and you may succeed, but that's only going to happen with concentrated effort and true desire. If it bugs your partner that much, and you don't feel any resentment ("they were ok with this when we were first together, why do they want me to change now"), you may be able to change, but that but about resentment is vital - if one partner has any feelings of resentment over being asked or expected to change, or being nagged about something that they have been doing from the beginning if the relationship, then that's going to poison it and the poison will out, sooner or later. It's often better to find ways of redirecting or working around some of the behaviour, and accepting the rest.

    There's also the problem of how to deal with the natural changes and evolution of one's partner. Some changes may annoy the hell out of you. Some changes may demand that you adapt and change yourself to be able to accept them in your partner.

    It's a very complex thing, this business of making a long term relationship between two not just imperfect, but growing and changing, human beings work. And sometimes it just can't work, no matter how hard both of you try. You find that the directions you are both growing in, and need to grow in to be true to yourselves, take you away from each other. This is the saddest thing, when you both know that you are no longer the right people for each other. I've had relationships end that way - and I'm proud of the fact that the mist important of those, my first marriage, ended in a way that left us friends.

    I've been in my current relationship for almost 20 years. Not long by the standards of the generations that came before me, when you stayed with someone no matter how dysfunctional the relationship became, but pretty good by modern standards. Even more than acceptance and willingness to try to change those imperfections that create strain, what's kept us together and very much in love and as committed now as we ever were is communication.

    We talk about all this ****, and more. Who we are, how we feel, what we want and need, what bugs us, where we're going, how we're changing, what we'd like to have happen between us, all the relationship stuff, all the time, never thinking it's done and sorted because as long as we live, we will change and we will always need to adapt, understand, accept.

    Um, ok, I should probably stop now.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  12. #12
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    @Lurk: I'm not actually sure I'm in full agreement with the speaker there. Something about the focus is off. She is much more afraid of disconnection than I actually am. I can't find the right words to say what I want to say about it right this instant. I'll try again later.

    @Meherrin: no need to worry about the size of your text walls. I'm the king of text walls you know . Your post touched on a lot of relevant things to consider, so thank you for sharing <3
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  13. #13
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    I learned long ago noone would be as perfect as me, once I did it made life easier as I could accept people having their faults and no longer hold it against them. Can you believe my wife didn't know to put mayo on both slices of bread? Like wtf
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  14. #14
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    Can you believe my wife didn't know to put mayo on both slices of bread? Like wtf
    I hate to tell you this, Blaze, but under no circumstances do you put mayo on both sides of a slice of bread. That's wrong
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  15. #15
    Senator Mouse-Keyboard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I hate to tell you this, Blaze, but under no circumstances do you put mayo on both sides of a slice of bread. That's wrong
    He said both slices, not both sides of one slice.

  16. #16
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I hate to tell you this, Blaze, but under no circumstances do you put mayo on both sides of a slice of bread. That's wrong
    Not on a club sandwich, middle slice.. but I did say both slices not sides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  17. #17
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Ah, my mistake.

    I suppose that is acceptable. If you like mayo for some strange reason, anyway.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  18. #18
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    You should not try to change a person. They are who they are, love them or hate them. All trying to change them does is cause friction and leave them feeing worthless.
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  19. #19
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Look -- a topic on which Rok and Cis are in agreement!

    I see where you're coming from on that, Cis.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  20. #20
    Senator Cisalpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Look -- a topic on which Rok and Cis are in agreement!

    I see where you're coming from on that, Cis.
    LOL. There have been a few times we agreed.

    And I've seen people being "forced" to do and be people they aren't to,just to survive. It sucks.
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  21. #21
    Senator Mouse-Keyboard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cisalpine View Post
    You should not try to change a person. They are who they are, love them or hate them. All trying to change them does is cause friction and leave them feeing worthless.
    What about rehabilitating criminals?

  22. #22
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    What about rehabilitating criminals?
    I considered pointing this out to Rok -- who undoubtedly believes rehabilitation of criminals is important in criminal justice -- but then didn't. So I'm glad you noticed this too.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    What about rehabilitating criminals?
    I'd say that's a case by case basis. When I started doing addictions work I came in with a lot of idealism, no such thing as a lost cause etc etc. 5 years later, oh yes there is such a thing. They're definitely not the majority but they are definitely out there.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    I'd say that's a case by case basis. When I started doing addictions work I came in with a lot of idealism, no such thing as a lost cause etc etc. 5 years later, oh yes there is such a thing. They're definitely not the majority but they are definitely out there.
    And yet - talking here about prisons and not addictions - in Europe, the majority of prisoners are rehabilitated, in that they re-integrate into society after their sentences are served, and do not re-offend. Are Europeans more amenable to rehabilitation? Or are the ways that prisoners are treated, during their sentences and after release, in North America less likely to enable rehabilitation?
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  25. #25
    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
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    In the US prisoner get raped!

    You take criminal to jail, then he become a victim, and he cannot live either normal life nor live in jail!
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  26. #26
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    I'm a firm believer that criminals cannot be rehabilitated. When I say the word criminal I only mean violent individuals or those who seek to hurt others in ways financial or emotionally. Those people cannot be helped.

    Some of you may know I'm a certified Drug rehab councilor for kids under 18. I run NA groups. From personal experience as well as actually being involved with helping people.... those who want help made a mistake.... the rest of them are just goners.

    The reality of the world is that some people are just never going to be able to function or be able to become acclimated to society.
    I'm not allowed to say anything situationally because I took an oath but it's pretty apparent you can't help people. The people who are capable of being helped are going to help themselves, not take it from us.... Criminals are the same way.... Some made a mistake and will help themselves be better people.... nothing you can do for them will make them or even help them change. They'll do it for themselves.
    Something about how I am

  27. #27
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    Well, since I caused the problem, I better wade in I guess. I think most criminals can be rehabilitated. BUT, it takes a lot of effort and what you are doing is mainly changing the way they express themselves (like picking up the undies or putting the lid down). If they understand that there is a way to live that gives them a better life/outcome then they do what it takes to get there. A lot of non-violent criminals should not really be called criminals, just selfish or opportunist. The violent ones can be changed with a lot of work. But you don't take on a life partner to conduct rehab style work on them.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  28. #28
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    You don't think major mindset changes happen, then? That contradicts my own personal experiences, Rok. Not to mention all those bad romance novels where the man goes from viewing marriage as a burden to viewing it as liberation.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  29. #29
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    You don't think major mindset changes happen, then? That contradicts my own personal experiences, Rok. Not to mention all those bad romance novels where the man goes from viewing marriage as a burden to viewing it as liberation.
    Even in those he doesn't change, just his opinion on marriage. I f he was mean and cold, he'll still be mean and cold. If he's obsessed about .. whatever.. time keeping, he still will be. I'm not saying people can't change their mind about things.. damn I do it all the time, hope I always will, that's just human. Just that the type of person they are, their personality traits don't change.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

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