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Thread: Travian ethics: do they matter?

  1. #1
    Senator Meherrin's Avatar
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    Default Travian ethics: do they matter?

    Consider this post as a rumination in what makes Travian the game it is, and what basic relationships are necessary for it to function - and what will damage it if they are broken.

    Travian is more than a war game. If that's all it were, there would be no need for alliances and NAPs and confeds being built into the system. We'd all just spawn, fight, and form casual and temporary relationships based on our own private agendas. No, Travian is about a group of people coming together to achieve a common goal through war. And so we have the bond that is the alliance, and the diplomatic options of NAP and confed.

    If you are going to bring people together for a sustained effort toward a common goal, you need people to co-ordinate that effort. So, also built into the system is a set of privileges that leaders have and may assign as needed to facilitate these things - communication, co-ordination, planning, negotiating and formalising relationships between individuals (as teammates) and alliances (as NAPs or confeds). And this is the second bond, between leadership and membership.

    And finally, Travian is a real-time, and time-intensive, game. So in order to make playing more manageable, we have a final built-in relationship, that of sitter. Perhaps the most intimate bind of all the bonds built into this game.

    Each of these bonds is a bond of trust. We trust our confeds, NAPs and especially our alliance mates to, at the very least, refrain from attacking us. We trust our leaders, at the very least, not to abuse the powers and privileges they are given. And we trust our sitters, at the very least, not to betray our accounts.

    To my mind, these are the sacred bonds of trust and responsibility that allow this game to function the way it does. Betraying or abusing any of these bonds threatens the game itself. It erodes trust, and without trust, we can play at war, but we will not be playing Travian.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  2. #2

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    Beautifully said. Really goes well with my 3rd coffee for the day.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Consider this post as a rumination in what makes Travian the game it is, and what basic relationships are necessary for it to function - and what will damage it if they are broken.

    Travian is more than a war game. If that's all it were, there would be no need for alliances and NAPs and confeds being built into the system. We'd all just spawn, fight, and form casual and temporary relationships based on our own private agendas. No, Travian is about a group of people coming together to achieve a common goal through war. And so we have the bond that is the alliance, and the diplomatic options of NAP and confed.

    If you are going to bring people together for a sustained effort toward a common goal, you need people to co-ordinate that effort. So, also built into the system is a set of privileges that leaders have and may assign as needed to facilitate these things - communication, co-ordination, planning, negotiating and formalising relationships between individuals (as teammates) and alliances (as NAPs or confeds). And this is the second bond, between leadership and membership.

    And finally, Travian is a real-time, and time-intensive, game. So in order to make playing more manageable, we have a final built-in relationship, that of sitter. Perhaps the most intimate bind of all the bonds built into this game.

    Each of these bonds is a bond of trust. We trust our confeds, NAPs and especially our alliance mates to, at the very least, refrain from attacking us. We trust our leaders, at the very least, not to abuse the powers and privileges they are given. And we trust our sitters, at the very least, not to betray our accounts.

    To my mind, these are the sacred bonds of trust and responsibility that allow this game to function the way it does. Betraying or abusing any of these bonds threatens the game itself. It erodes trust, and without trust, we can play at war, but we will not be playing Travian.
    And we are careful about all of these, and don't join alliances that don't look like they have a good leadership team, let people sit us, assign positions to strangers...

    I don't think it ruins the game, I think it's a huge part of the game and after listening, can't escape that GONE dropped these balls.

    EDIT: I don't want to follow some people not because I don't like them, often I don't. In this particular case I would have avoided GONE because I am not surprised that they were taken advantage of in this way.
    Last edited by bugzy; 03-12-2017 at 06:44 PM.

  4. #4

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    I need to spread more rep around.

  5. #5
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Agreed on everything, Meherrin. 100%.

    Bugzy, GONE did not have the luxury of knowinf each other before this round. If none of us went on a limb and assigned positions to people who were willing to help, neither I nor most people in the GONE council would have had any role at all.
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  6. #6

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    To add to what Luisss has said, he's exactly right. None of us knew each other before this round, which obviously put us at a disadvantage on numerous fronts, but they ultimately had to make some decisions to put people that they had no long-term history with into leadership positions.

  7. #7

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    You guys would benefit from our council chats, and how we vet people.. We are strict.. This very likely wouldn't have been a possible scenario in our group..
    s1 : Storeythor http://travian-reports.net/us/report/2674061c50d
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    Gotta be talented to look after 2 WW's simultaneously. Or crazy... Crazy seems more like it.
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    The more I read of OdinLoki's posts, the more I want to play alongside him. Not for the results, as frequently good as they are, but for the sheer fun he seems to have at it. Would + rep if I could, man. Always enjoy reading your stuff... and mostly cringe at the results contained in 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chas00 View Post
    Storeythor,most offensive/defensive account holder on the server.
    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    He's a nut and the more the odds are stacked against him, the better he seems to come out of it.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by odinloki View Post
    You guys would benefit from our council chats, and how we vet people.. We are strict.. This very likely wouldn't have been a possible scenario in our group..
    It won't be an issue next round. Lesson learned.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    Agreed on everything, Meherrin. 100%.

    Bugzy, GONE did not have the luxury of knowinf each other before this round. If none of us went on a limb and assigned positions to people who were willing to help, neither I nor most people in the GONE council would have had any role at all.
    This right here is why I won't follow you:
    After all these years you do not have two or three trusted people?
    You need help, so instead of starting them off as arti coordinator or somesuch you hand them Getter and your hammers?
    That's everybody else's hammer, when you take on that responsibility, and this happens, it's on you.

    Outside of the way you argue and don't let go, it has nothing to do with whether I like you or not. You took that chance with trust for your alliance. You put all of their hard work up on your leap of faith.

    Maybe don't try to lead next time. Join an alliance and instead of arguing with everybody, maybe learn from the people that you're playing against. Make more friends.

    It's hard for me to remain tagless even incognito, too many friends, and I'm not even particularly nice here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    It won't be an issue next round. Lesson learned.
    Hooray! To the next round and a stronger opponent and/or ally! This is what separates you from your current leadership.

  10. #10
    Senator Meherrin's Avatar
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    Trust and responsibility go hand in hand.

    Yes, I agree it is the responsibility of every player to do the best they can to ensure that they do not place their trust unwisely.

    I also think it is the responsibility of every player who is trusted to at a minimum adhere to the basic levels of behaviour I mentioned.

    Betrayal takes two - the one who misplaced trust and the one who violated trust. And for my part, I place greater responsibility on the one who actively betrays a trust.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Betrayal takes two - the one who misplaced trust and the one who violated trust. And for my part, I place greater responsibility on the one who actively betrays a trust.
    Very well said.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Trust and responsibility go hand in hand.

    Yes, I agree it is the responsibility of every player to do the best they can to ensure that they do not place their trust unwisely.

    I also think it is the responsibility of every player who is trusted to at a minimum adhere to the basic levels of behaviour I mentioned.

    Betrayal takes two - the one who misplaced trust and the one who violated trust. And for my part, I place greater responsibility on the one who actively betrays a trust.
    You can do that, but you are a leader and I trust you. We're facebook friends. We've helped each other IRL. We're not particularly close and our views don't always align but if I found your knife in my back Travian-wise I would be impressed and a little frightened.

    It doesn't sound like GONE tried at all.

    EDIT by "GONE" I mean GONE leadership, particularly the one that assigned the privs.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Trust and responsibility go hand in hand.

    Yes, I agree it is the responsibility of every player to do the best they can to ensure that they do not place their trust unwisely.

    I also think it is the responsibility of every player who is trusted to at a minimum adhere to the basic levels of behaviour I mentioned.

    Betrayal takes two - the one who misplaced trust and the one who violated trust. And for my part, I place greater responsibility on the one who actively betrays a trust.
    Amen! You are one of my favorites. You have a level head and speak facts and don't let emotions get too involved
    US1:R3 Alliteration -oNE R10 Twist of Fate -GONE
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Consider this post as a rumination in what makes Travian the game it is, and what basic relationships are necessary for it to function - and what will damage it if they are broken.

    Travian is more than a war game. If that's all it were, there would be no need for alliances and NAPs and confeds being built into the system. We'd all just spawn, fight, and form casual and temporary relationships based on our own private agendas. No, Travian is about a group of people coming together to achieve a common goal through war. And so we have the bond that is the alliance, and the diplomatic options of NAP and confed.

    If you are going to bring people together for a sustained effort toward a common goal, you need people to co-ordinate that effort. So, also built into the system is a set of privileges that leaders have and may assign as needed to facilitate these things - communication, co-ordination, planning, negotiating and formalising relationships between individuals (as teammates) and alliances (as NAPs or confeds). And this is the second bond, between leadership and membership.

    And finally, Travian is a real-time, and time-intensive, game. So in order to make playing more manageable, we have a final built-in relationship, that of sitter. Perhaps the most intimate bind of all the bonds built into this game.

    Each of these bonds is a bond of trust. We trust our confeds, NAPs and especially our alliance mates to, at the very least, refrain from attacking us. We trust our leaders, at the very least, not to abuse the powers and privileges they are given. And we trust our sitters, at the very least, not to betray our accounts.

    To my mind, these are the sacred bonds of trust and responsibility that allow this game to function the way it does. Betraying or abusing any of these bonds threatens the game itself. It erodes trust, and without trust, we can play at war, but we will not be playing Travian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Trust and responsibility go hand in hand.

    Yes, I agree it is the responsibility of every player to do the best they can to ensure that they do not place their trust unwisely.

    I also think it is the responsibility of every player who is trusted to at a minimum adhere to the basic levels of behaviour I mentioned.

    Betrayal takes two - the one who misplaced trust and the one who violated trust. And for my part, I place greater responsibility on the one who actively betrays a trust.
    I agree so much with the above and not just because Mehr is my dual.

    I assume we all are playing the game because we like the game, the people we are playing with or a combination of the two, it behooves us to foster a healthy game environment. In this incident, my sympathy is for the GONE rank and file. Remaining GONE leaders, pick yourselves up (I assume you have been doing so), learn from your mistakes and serve your rank and file. Lead them,
    work to beat the Natars, have fun.

    We all need good strong opponents, the better the opponent the more we are pushed to do our utmost. But never forget our in game opponents are opponents only for this round, they are not our enemy. They are people we want to stick around so we can play good games.
    Note:Any posts made by this poster should always be construed in the most innocent angelic way possible. The poster is not responsible for where your depraved minds go, if you have a depraved mind.

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    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    This right here is why I won't follow you:
    After all these years you do not have two or three trusted people?
    You need help, so instead of starting them off as arti coordinator or somesuch you hand them Getter and your hammers?
    That's everybody else's hammer, when you take on that responsibility, and this happens, it's on you.

    Outside of the way you argue and don't let go, it has nothing to do with whether I like you or not. You took that chance with trust for your alliance. You put all of their hard work up on your leap of faith.

    Maybe don't try to lead next time. Join an alliance and instead of arguing with everybody, maybe learn from the people that you're playing against. Make more friends.

    It's hard for me to remain tagless even incognito, too many friends, and I'm not even particularly nice here.



    Hooray! To the next round and a stronger opponent and/or ally! This is what separates you from your current leadership.
    You know so little about me and the situation that all I can do is marvel at your post.

    I came back after a two-ish year hiatus of playing the game, and spawned on a server without a) reaching out to anyone or b) announcing I was coming back.

    I was offense coordinator, and had to step in the defense coordinator role. I did not have time to do both, so the council deliberated about who to allow to do it. LB specifically volunteered, after he had been in charge of sit-checking accounts to make sure they understood how to optimize their accounts based on their goals/situation.

    Our entire council was duped, I was not the one who simply decided that I would hand over everything.

    PS: Your post reeks of "you were asking for it dressed like that!". No, sabotage is not okay simply because you think their leader is bad. None of my actions justify the level of sabotage we've seen here.
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    Blah blah blah
    I know that you have been here for years, you just made another horrific blunder that affected people that were depending on you, and you're here taking no ownership. You're just amazed that I would say such a thing.

    This could not, and would not have happened to BTDT, and if somehow it did it would be isolated, because we know what we're doing. Please go learn to play before ruining the game for even more people that might want to play on your team.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post

    PS: Your post reeks of "you were asking for it dressed like that!". No, sabotage is not okay simply because you think their leader is bad. None of my actions justify the level of sabotage we've seen here.
    Hey I'm not gonna tell you how to post, but comparing your situation in any way to **** might be a bad starting point

    Edit: R*pe is censored, huh
    I've probably played 30 servers at this point

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  18. #18
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    You make assumptions about me and the GONE leadership team, I address them, and you tell me to learn how to play.

    Just save us both the time and dont bother posting if you have no interest in the truth. The people depending on me know what happened, and look at that - they're still here. It is why I am SO glad to be on the side I'm on. And I'm glad you're on the side that you're on.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Teutons View Post
    Hey I'm not gonna tell you how to post, but comparing your situation in any way to **** might be a bad starting point

    Edit: R*pe is censored, huh
    It is pretty clear what I was doing, and it was not comparing what happened to ****. It was about attacking the victim instead of the perpetrator.
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    dont bother posting
    Don't ever presume to tell me whether I may speak or not.

    You told me in a post you took a chance and trusted someone with OC powers.

    That is n00b.

    Nobody should trust you. Not because you are dishonest. Because you do not know what in the heck you are doing!

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post

    It is pretty clear what I was doing, and it was not comparing what happened to ****. It was about attacking the victim instead of the perpetrator.
    Then use the term victim blaming instead of comparing yourself to a **** victim, and remove all doubt.
    I've probably played 30 servers at this point

    US1 Honeybadger - http://travian-reports.net/us/report/46781746d83

    I blame blazin1 for any actions that may occur during the course of any server

  21. #21

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    The Luisss bashing for the sake of Luisss bashing really is getting old.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teutons View Post
    Then use the term victim blaming instead of comparing yourself to a **** victim, and remove all doubt.
    I wasn't even going to address it, but let's put it in terms that maybe Luisss can understand that isn't so dramatic and controversial. It was obviously of poor taste.

    In some communities, it is illegal to leave your car running unattended. This is what you did.

    Say what LB did was unethical. Why isn't he banned? He was playing within the rules. Ethics is us talking about how we think the game should be played.

    Cheating is unethical, beyond that, "All's fair..."

    You left the car running, and you're blaming the car thief. Fair enough, but you may be getting a ticket yourself. Own up to it.

  23. #23

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    You don't really believe all that bugzy, cmon.

    You left the car running therefore it is your fault someone stole it? What society do you live in?

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsier View Post
    The Luisss bashing for the sake of Luisss bashing really is getting old.
    Actually you'll note I almost never get in on the Luiss bashing, but comparing GONE to a **** victim is a step to far I think
    I've probably played 30 servers at this point

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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsier View Post
    The Luisss bashing for the sake of Luisss bashing really is getting old.
    That's pretty much the entire forum has been this round.

    If this LB was a leadership fail that is not solely on the feet of Luisss, nor is he or anyone else in GONE or its leadership responsible for the actions of LB.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsier View Post
    You don't really believe all that bugzy, cmon.

    You left the car running therefore it is your fault someone stole it? What society do you live in?
    It's better than the other analogy, and I didn't just make it up:

    In response, a number of states and local municipalities have passed laws regarding the practice of leaving vehicles unattended while running. For example, Colorado bans the practice entirely and will ticket owners found running their cars or trucks with nobody behind the wheel. Arizona, on the other hand, has a time limit, allowing one to leave a vehicle unattended and running for five minutes or less. There are a wide variety of other variations, but an increasing number of states and municipalities are trying to discourage the seemingly innocent, but often risky practice.

    sauce: https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=31777

  27. #27

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    Remind me to never live in Colorado. Banning people from running their car? What kinda nanny state is that. Just when you think a state is making some libertarian progress by legalizing the weed they go and do some nonsense like that and prove that they're really just a bunch of big government statists.

  28. #28

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    When you're a leader, it's even more important.

    The car doesn't belong to you, it belongs to all the people that trust you not to let it get stolen.

    You protect it.

    The society I live in (as far as this game) is WAR! Duh.

    Sugar coat it all you want, but there has to be a bad ending for at least half of us.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    It's better than the other analogy, and I didn't just make it up:

    In response, a number of states and local municipalities have passed laws regarding the practice of leaving vehicles unattended while running. For example, Colorado bans the practice entirely and will ticket owners found running their cars or trucks with nobody behind the wheel. Arizona, on the other hand, has a time limit, allowing one to leave a vehicle unattended and running for five minutes or less. There are a wide variety of other variations, but an increasing number of states and municipalities are trying to discourage the seemingly innocent, but often risky practice.

    sauce: https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=31777
    Ok but that doesn't mean that charges are brought against the cars owner for the theft of his car, nor does it say it is the owners fault for having their car stolen. Just because they are "given out fines" does not place blame, they are simply trying their best to deter the more erroneous crime of car theft.

    I just think everyone is all at arms because it came from Luisss. I do not think his analogy was misplaced. I am sure if someone from BTDTs side would have used that analogy it would have just been passed over and never commented on. I am sure everyone from BTDT posting here will say "No it wouldn't" and whatever. To that all I will do is roll my eyes.

    Edit incoming....

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    When you're a leader, it's even more important.

    The car doesn't belong to you, it belongs to all the people that trust you not to let it get stolen.

    You protect it.

    The society I live in (as far as this game) is WAR! Duh.

    Sugar coat it all you want, but there has to be a bad ending for at least half of us.
    A bad ending doesn't mean you go home nad cry to your momma style bad ending. It can end with honor on both sides. If I was in GONE and none of this happened and the round went to BTDT honorably, then the loss is a loss is a loss. But, as I put explained about round 5 with the WW, it was a hollow victory and I think it ended badly for both sides. Though I do taught around that I was on the first team to force a Natar WW win. :P
    Last edited by Kelsier; 03-12-2017 at 11:27 PM.

  30. #30
    Senator Meherrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    I wasn't even going to address it, but let's put it in terms that maybe Luisss can understand that isn't so dramatic and controversial. It was obviously of poor taste.

    In some communities, it is illegal to leave your car running unattended. This is what you did.

    Say what LB did was unethical. Why isn't he banned? He was playing within the rules. Ethics is us talking about how we think the game should be played.

    Cheating is unethical, beyond that, "All's fair..."

    You left the car running, and you're blaming the car thief. Fair enough, but you may be getting a ticket yourself. Own up to it.
    I would rather say that cheating is both unethical and illegal - in that it is punishable by the regulating body here - while many of the other behaviours we are discussing are matters of ethics and/or community/social contracts.

    I've laid out what I think to be the most basic of standards of behaviour within the community/social contract:

    1. You do not play an account you sit to its disadvantage, which is to say you do not abuse the trust of someone you sit
    2. You do not abuse the leadership powers and privileges built into the system to the disadvantage of the alliance or its members
    3. You do not attack alliance mates to the disadvantage of the alliance as a whole or any member thereof (the ability to attack is allowed in the system for the purpose of attacks that benefit, such as moving artefacts or chiefing villages where both parties are in agreement).

    I hold these to be the basic ethical standards. Beyond that, there are other behaviours that some agree with and others do not - spying, for one. And clearly there are people who do not agree that these three basics I see as vital form a line that should not be crossed.

    Which it why I asked if ethics matter?

    We've had people saying that because another player, leadership group or alliance does something, it's fine for all to do it, whether it's ethical or not.

    We've had some people saying you only need to behave ethically toward the cautious and vigilant, that the vulnerable or the unwise - and where leadership is concerned, those who trust them - are fair game and deserve whatever they get.

    Are these acceptable justifications for doing whatever we want to do, or for cheering on others when they do whatever they want to do?
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  31. #31

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    It's not about Luisss, let's call it GONE leadership.

    Didn't have much to say about the reference, just changed it to one less dramatic, if not less controversial.

    Point is, they are at war, yet they gave the getter data to someone that they really didn't know. They don't seem to take any responsibility for their part in it, they just want to condemn their opponent.

    Their opponent took that information and played to the extremes of the gray area we call spying. We all say spying is OK. We may not think it ethical, and we all wring our hands and discuss it, but it's not cheating. He's in no danger of a ban for it.

    Is this like speeding where me going 80 is fine, but you going 85 is crazy?

    This is war. There's no trust as such. I trust you Travian-wise and you probably trust me. Why is that?

  32. #32

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    I wasn't necessarily calling you out on the analogy thing bugz. Was a blanket statement.

    Again, I will use my "throw a dart" metaphor for the situation. You act like LB just happened to be there and they decided to give him the info. You don't think he built relationships inside the alliance and all that?

    I am starting a group on another server and building relationships with the members. We are looking beyond just this one round. This round is the "get to know you" round. They have stated they were not preformed and Luisss came into the round blind and mute.

    bugzy, go start on a new server, on a different domain even. Don't tell anyone about it and start your own alliance. Let me know how it goes for you, I'll wait.



  33. #33
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsier View Post
    Again, I will use my "throw a dart" metaphor for the situation. You act like LB just happened to be there and they decided to give him the info. You don't think he built relationships inside the alliance and all that?
    To be blunt, from an outsider's perspective that's what it sounds like. I think that GONE, minus Luisss (or honestly, even with him as he's not a quick learner) and Nich was a pretty inexperienced group overall. Even their council members haven't played a whole lot of rounds from what I understand. I think they saw Tik Tok's performance, always top 10 raider usually #1, lots of troops and clearly knows what he's doing, and got way too excited way too quickly.

    It would be kind of like, if you were working on a project as a team at your place of employment, and were having a really tough time with it, couldn't understand the process as well as you could or should have, and one of the new guys shows up and knows almost everything there is to know about the project, you're pretty likely to give him the reins. Even if he seems to work independently or isn't the most social.

    Now, giving him getter access and boot powers, that was a dumb move on whoever's part. You can do off coordination without full-on getter access. It's harder but if you have someone that's motivated enough to just give the guy a list of major hammers and rough counts that should be enough to plan a simple op.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

    [7:32 AM] Jason (Al Bundy raidslave): Who the **** loses an arti to 18 phalanx
    [7:32 AM] Old Timer US1: The same faction that loses one to 66 legos

  34. #34

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    I used to start alliances, and even lead them before I knew better.

    Now when I start on a server, I always run into a friend or two in that quad. I have no interest in leading. I take unpopular opinions that would have alienated half of BTDT by now.

    To all the things Morgan said, yeah I live by that ethical standard. I don't condone what LB did, but it makes me mad that he was able to do it.

    One can settle 2nd inside BP without raiding now. By the time anybody is catapulting you, if they bother to do it for a long time, it's not before you can get somewhat built up, have a look around, and try to figure out which alliance knows what it is doing. in these days when a single player can easily win alliance medals, it's less of an excuse.

    I blame the quests that imply that joining an alliance is something you must rush into.

  35. #35
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Tik was in GONE for like 5 months before he got getter access. And in GONE for at least a few months before we allowed him in the council room. You could at least ask these questions instead of assuming.

    We did not give him everything the minute he joined.

    He talked with me and GONE for hours, weeks, months, before we trusted him to do coordination. TBH, not wanting to seem like a dictator on my part played a big role in me being willing to hand over offensive reins to someone else, too.

    I have expressed my apologies to my members over and over for trusting the wrong person, but I had no choice but to go out on a limb and trust some when I came into GONE and throughout the server. For the most part, it has been beneficial.

    I came into the server without anyone I knew except Cis and Greg, and they made it clear quite early they were not on my side. Now whether we win or lose, the core of GONE cant wait to play together again - but as a result of LB and the toxic nature of BTDT posters and players (some, not all) we will probably join a non .us server and not post at all.
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    I think that GONE, minus Luisss (or honestly, even with him as he's not a quick learner) and Nich was a pretty inexperienced group overall.
    I have learned more from Nich this round than I have from any player that I've ever played with on Travian.

    If you're talking leading alliances, I have no idea what his history is as far as that goes, but when it comes to knowledge of the game, the guy is like a Travian Wiki page.

  37. #37
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    I had some contact with nich before ending up on opposite sides of this contest, and he seemed like an excellent person and is apparently a very good player. What I have seen from banzai both in game and on the forums says the same about him. I am not the best at following who is whom on the game vs. on the forums, so I apologize for not including any more.

    That said, BTDT has been the most impressive professional group of players I have ever played with.

    For whatever both of those comments are worth at this point.

    EDIT:
    I also want to say this, for what it's worth --
    While I hope to defeat my enemies on the field of battle, I hope that both I and they are worthy of the challenge. The great heroes of history were such not because they lorded over unworthy opponents, but because their bouts were against the worthiest of foes.
    Last edited by The Burninator; 03-13-2017 at 01:33 AM.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    Say what LB did was unethical. Why isn't he banned? He was playing within the rules. Ethics is us talking about how we think the game should be played.

    Cheating is unethical, beyond that, "All's fair..."
    My thoughts exactly. If it is not illegal, then it is a game mechanic. It may be in poor taste... but isn't war always?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsier View Post
    You left the car running therefore it is your fault someone stole it? What society do you live in?
    This is a poor analogy. LuLu and the rest of GONE leadership didn't leave their cars running... they left an entire fleet of other peoples' cars running.

    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    The car doesn't belong to you, it belongs to all the people that trust you not to let it get stolen.
    I actually read this after having already prepared the previous reply. Seems Bugzy and I are of one mind on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I also want to say this, for what it's worth --
    While I hope to defeat my enemies on the field of battle, I hope that both I and they are worthy of the challenge. The great heroes of history were such not because they lorded over unworthy opponents, but because their bouts were against the worthiest of foes.
    That's almost poetic. I agree 100%. I was in contact with Tik Tok for a while. I didn't know the full extent of what he was planning, but as BTDT's OC I would have been neglecting my duties not to investigate and obtain what information I could... to an extent. I know GONE likely will not believe this, but I vastly limited the inflow of information from Tik Tok to myself becasue of eactly what TheBurn just pointed out. It would be a shallow victory and say nothing of my skills or those of the hammer players I direct if I could see GONE's hand the entire game. I've heard a lot of speculation about how certain hammers got chiefed, suggesting that they only were due to information provided by Tik Tok. I will point out for the record that BTDT hammers and myself had not been exploiting Tik's leaks until rather recently, when we knew that the trigger was about to be pulled and the information would expire. I find it irritating the GONE will take this opportunity to belittle the hard work of BTDT hammers who have excelled at their jobs ever since I became OC. Say what you will about our methods, but the BTDT hammer team is a class-A bunch of players.

    You'll have to forgive the rant... but I find it important to give proper recognition to our hammer players who follows direction to the letter, and often times do not even need direction. I don't want their efforts lost in the muk of this.
    Last edited by SupremeAdmiral; 03-13-2017 at 06:17 AM.

  39. #39
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    To be somewhat more clear, I meant that to be somewhat of a rebuke of LB. What he did may have been allowed but it does seem pretty rude.

    I do think that taking advantage of his leaks probably falls under bugzy's "alls fair in love and war." I don't think it was our responsibility to say no to the intel, in other words. Not least because I still think GONE will win -- it's going to be pretty hard to keep them from leveling the wonder up to 100, even if we can knock it down once or twice. So idk if this really changes anything about the outcome here. But my general feeling is "I would have preferred fighting GONE without this having happened, because I prefer a cleaner fight."

    Of course, I could be wrong / underestimating the power of BTDT's hammers or overestimating GONE's defenses and ability to strike back. I could be wrong about what counts as fair or foul in this game, too. I'm bad at this game and have not played this competitively in prior servers, so take whatever I say with however many grains of salt you desire. I'm just expressing my general feeling about what has transpired, not trying to pick any fights.

    EDIT:
    Don't get me wrong -- I love us. Our alliance is the best . Just sayin'
    Last edited by The Burninator; 03-13-2017 at 01:47 PM.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  40. #40
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    I have learned more from Nich this round than I have from any player that I've ever played with on Travian.

    If you're talking leading alliances, I have no idea what his history is as far as that goes, but when it comes to knowledge of the game, the guy is like a Travian Wiki page.
    Yes which is why I said "minus Nich" - so GONE without Nich was a pretty inexperienced group. Obviously over the course of the last few months we've definitely seen some of your players pick up some nice tricks that have worked well against us here and there.

    Nich, in addition to being a classy guy and a great joy to talk to, has a track record on this game that is completely unquestionable.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

    [7:32 AM] Jason (Al Bundy raidslave): Who the **** loses an arti to 18 phalanx
    [7:32 AM] Old Timer US1: The same faction that loses one to 66 legos

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