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Thread: Travian ethics: do they matter?

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by SupremeAdmiral View Post
    ...I will point out for the record that BTDT hammers and myself had not been exploiting Tik's leaks until rather recently, when we knew that the trigger was about to be pulled and the information would expire...
    It would have been better if you said "at all" instead of "rather recently".

  2. #42

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    Good debate.
    Got to say though, bugzy made a good point. Does Meh have a rebuttal?

    As for the R comment. I can't remember who it was, but somebody a few rounds ago made a comment about it. And Kimmie of all people was the first to condemn it I believe. Most of us were against her, but we all took her side on it. So no, it would not be considered an acceptable comment. That being said, I think Luis just used a terribly stupid example. Maybe edit it and use something that is not illegal? Because the tactic was not illegal.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious_Machine View Post
    Good debate.
    Got to say though, bugzy made a good point. Does Meh have a rebuttal?
    I thought I made it. If it was unclear....

    No, just because someone makes an unwise decision, that does not justify everything that might happen to them as a result of that decision.

    You leave your car running and someone steals it.... You were stupid, but the person who took it is still a thief.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    I thought I made it. If it was unclear....
    If there's someone I'm going to listen to on this server, or any other it's the COLs. Morgan and I have been talking.

    Decided early this server that I, and those that were with me, were here so that the COLs could talk the talk, and we'd assist with their walking the walk. Without Morgan, flower and Cis with me, I may consider quitting. Until then...

    There are three distinct ethics problems:

    1) Having a responsibility to protect key alliance assets, and failing that responsibility.
    2) All of the evil and horrible things LB did (Which he could not do if 1) did not happen)
    3) What should BTDT do about it.

    1) My father used to tell me to lock the doors to "Keep honest people honest". I do not have getter access because I do not need getter access. I'm as trusted in BTDT as almost anybody but am not willing to put in the time.

    We have a new player that's willing to put in the time, but we have only known him this round. We arti-coordinator trust him. We do not getter trust him.

    The guy that has getter access is a guy I'd never met, but he is a former dual of a player I've played in a battle group with for an entire round.

    I realize you say, "bugzy, I didn't know anybody when I started this round!" "Go start a server where you don't know anybody and start an alliance, tell me how that goes."

    I am not Superman. I will tell you two things about me: I am not very good at Travian; I stand on the shoulders of giants. I get that, and my answer is perhaps you should not have taken on leadership of a top alliance. It's too much responsibility, and there are too many people relying on you.

    2) Personally, I would not have done what LB did. It affects whether I would ally with him in this round, or in the future. (Irrelevant as everybody knows I retired years ago). I don't think it's going to get him into BTDT. BUT he did not break the rules and played the game the way the developers allowed, whether we like it or not. Spying is built into this game on purpose.

    3) We didn't do it. Should we just quit and go home instead of taking this advantage? This is the most unfair question of all. We are the least responsible for this happening. This is on LB and GONE allowing him to do it.

    It implies that we needed this to happen to gain an advantage, and that's so far from the truth that it's insulting.
    Last edited by bugzy; 03-13-2017 at 02:50 PM.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    3) We didn't do it. Should we just quit and go home instead of taking this advantage? This is the most unfair question of all. We are the least responsible for this happening. This is on LB and GONE allowing him to do it.

    It implies that we needed this to happen to gain an advantage, and that's so far from the truth that it's insulting.
    I think we are past the point of thinking BTDT "did this". And I am not sure why you think you should all quit and go home. Luisss said HE would have done that or whatever, but if you choose to take that as him saying "since I would do it you should do it..." then is that how you take it.

    As for your last sentence, not sure where you are getting that at all to be honest.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsier View Post
    I think we are past the point of thinking BTDT "did this". And I am not sure why you think you should all quit and go home. Luisss said HE would have done that or whatever, but if you choose to take that as him saying "since I would do it you should do it..." then is that how you take it.

    As for your last sentence, not sure where you are getting that at all to be honest.
    Luisss said HE would have done that, correct. I ask "Should we?" I am arguing against that idea, because it implies that I should before I would take advantage of such a travesty, and that Luisss somehow sees himself on some sort of moral high ground here, which is extra insulting because he's more responsible for this happening than say...anybody in BTDT.

    As for the last line, I don't believe the core of BTDT wanted this. Again, we want our enemy to be strong so that WE can kill them.

  7. #47

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    Ok bugzy, I get you. I feel like we are jabbing at different points at different times in these conversations though. I am arguing over here and you are replying over there, then you bring up points over here and I am over there. Not saying that rudely or that it is a bad thing. You are still my boy, Blue.


  8. #48

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    Yeah, same problem here. And I know we're on the same page, maybe different paragraphs.

    I would have taken this to a Skype chat long ago*, but you're not in my contacts anymore.

    *EDIT: On the other hand, this has the advantage of getting everything out in the open.

  9. #49

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    I like it being out in the open.

    I clean my contacts every couple weeks, same with my Facebook friends. I hope you didn't take it personally mate.

  10. #50
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    Let me be very clear about this, because there are several points here. I have different opinions about the various things that have happened. There's actually a lot of them. I'll try to differentiate, although the experience of the past few days leads me to believe I may see clear distinctions where others do not. Different people, different perceptions.

    1. Lord Bane, who is generally believed to be on the Tik Tok account though I have not seen him publicly acknowledge that, spied. Fine by me.
    2. Lord Bane, if he is indeed on the Tik Tok account, which i believe to be true, concealed not just his intentions, which spies must do, but his identity, creating a separate persona which he later used to create trust in himself among GONE members. This is not something I'd do, and strikes me as unethical - the degree to which it is unethical depends on his intentions. Absent intention of acting unethically, call it a grey area.
    3. At some point in the server, Lord Bane decided that his intention would be to devastate GONE from within, which his false oersona and existing membership in GONE made possible. Definitely crossing the line.
    4. Lord Bane abused leadership powers by kicking everyone from the GONE embassy. Unethical.
    5. Lord Bane attacked members of GONE without first declaring himself and being recognised as no longer part of the alliance. Unethical.
    6. It has been said, though I have no way of determining the truth of this, that Lord Bane violated sitter privilege by acting in ways that did not serve the interests of the account he sat. If true, unethical.
    7. BTDT leadership accepted intelligence from Lord Bane. Fine by me.
    8. Some BTDT leaders were aware of at least some of Lord Bane's intentions over an extended period of time. Grey area.
    9. Some BTDT leaders co-ordinated an attack on GONE that took Lord Bane's intended attacks into account in their planning. Inasmuch as I hold Lord Bane to have acted unethically in attacking without due warning, I must hold those BTDT leaders as having acted unethically by explicitly condoning Lord Bane's actions to the extent to which their planning was cognizant of and relied on Lord Bane's actions.
    10. Some BTDT leaders continued to take advantage of the situation to organise additional attacks on GONE. Not nice, but it is war.
    11. Some BTDT members and leaders have after the fact stated that they approve of some or all of the things Lord Bane did that I hold to be unethical. Approval of an unethical act is unethical.
    12. Some BTDT members and leaders have justified some or all of the things Lord Bane did that I hold to be unethical by arguing that GONE as a whole deserved it because some of their members and leaders made unwise decisions, committed unethical acts themselves, tolerated unethical acts by other members, or gave their trust too readily. I find this distasteful but nit strictly speaking unethical unless accompanied by approval of some or all of the things Lord Bane did that I hold to be unethical.

    So there it is. I've probably left out something but these are the distinct actions I see and my personal assessment of their ethicality. I'm pretty sure no one is going to want a drink with me now, because I will have gone way too far for some people and not nearly far enough for others.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsier View Post
    I like it being out in the open.

    I clean my contacts every couple weeks, same with my Facebook friends. I hope you didn't take it personally mate.
    I do the same. I did not assume you'd take it personally.

    Edit: Morgan, do not have a problem with any of that, although my gray areas would be a bit larger. It only addresses 2) and 3) of my points, though.
    Last edited by bugzy; 03-13-2017 at 03:54 PM.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    post
    To Meherrin, with love. Many points she made is points I am trying to argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    I do the same. I did not assume you'd take it personally.
    Never.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    I do the same. I did not assume you'd take it personally.

    Edit: Morgan, do not have a problem with any of that, although my gray areas would be a bit larger. It only addresses 2) and 3) of my points, though.
    Ah, this point:

    1) Having a responsibility to protect key alliance assets, and failing that responsibility.
    Sorry, forgot that, largely because I don't see that as an ethical issue but a competence issue. And sometimes just a 'life sucks and/or humans aren't perfect' issue. Unless there's proof that the persons in question made no attempt whatsoever to fulfil their responsibilities.

    If flower does all she can to make the right calls for defense during an op, but she reads the situation wrong and we lose an arti. Is that a matter of ethics? No, its a 'life sucks and humans aren't perfect' issue.

    If i'm trying to fill flower's shoes and I do the best i can, but I read the situation wrong and we lose an arti. Is that a matter of ethics? No, it's a matter of competence because I'm not as good as flower is.

    If there's reported incoming on an arti and we lose it because by some horrible mischance everyone with access to the DC system is working, asleep, at school, in the hospital, visiting their long lost uncle or doing something in real life. Is that a matter of ethics? Maybe, a teensy bit, but I would say it's a 'life sucks' kind of thing.

    If someone with access to the DC system sees the incoming on an arti, figures that it's a real, and does nothing, that's an ethical issue.

    So.... Unless you can demonstrate that there is wilful and intentional dereliction of duty, then it's either incompetence, bad luck, life sucks, no one's perfect, or something else that may wrll be problematic and need fixing, but isn't an ethical issue.

    You might argue that in the case of incompetence, one has a responsibility to relieve one's self of duties beyond one's abilities or knowledge. But sometimes you may be bad at something, but you're the only one willing, or the best available. And it is also only human to overestimate (or underestimate) one's abilities. So.... Not necessarily an ethical issue either.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  14. #54

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    I'll concede that it is a competence issue. Not owning up to it and blaming everybody else, ethics. Not learning from it, wisdom.

    I'm also done. Like I said, I was only here to defend BTDT being accused of coordinating this by somebody I felt had bad intel, but good intentions.

    While doing that, Luisss said they, "took a chance" like you "have to" in their situation, and put it all together. Otherwise I would have probably lurked and sulked like I did when Tonya Harding attacked Nancy with the tire iron.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    I'll concede that it is a competence issue. Not owning up to it and blaming everybody else, ethics. Not learning from it, wisdom.

    I'm also done. Like I said, I was only here to defend BTDT being accused of coordinating this by somebody I felt had bad intel, but good intentions.

    While doing that, Luisss said they, "took a chance" like you "have to" in their situation, and put it all together. Otherwise I would have probably lurked and sulked like I did when Tonya Harding attacked Nancy with the tire iron.
    Fair enough. Thank you for your contributions to the discussion, you've helped me to sort out my own positions.

    As for figure skating, it's always been my contention that Kerrigan was somewhat overrated, but we'll never know for sure. Chen Lu was my favourite for Worlds, but then Baiul came out of nowhere. Harding hadn't a chance, not at Worlds - very little artistry, she relied on her jumps and jumps are not enough.
    Last edited by Meherrin; 03-13-2017 at 06:08 PM.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    As for figure skating, it's always been my contention that Kerrigan was somewhat overrated, but we'll never know for sure.
    As for Travian, it's always been my contention that GONE is somewhat overrated, but we'll never know the potential without this event. Maybe it makes them stronger. I hope so.

    Like I said about kels, you are another that ensures that we play at a high ethical standard, and if we do not we have to answer for it. I have no problem with that. On the contrary, we all committed to that years ago and I am thankful for it.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    It erodes trust, and without trust, we can play at war, but we will not be playing Travian.
    I've been waiting to really post my thoughts in this thread. I wanted to make sure my thoughts weren't completely emotionally driven.

    I don't care for the spy aspect of this game, never have. I know I've said it before. I do understand the role they play in this game, however and how they've pretty much become necessary. TikTok's (TT) situation is different than that average spy and he even told me when this all started going down that he wasn't a spy per se. I've thought about that for a few days now and I believe that he both was and wasn't.

    Being a spy doesn't make a person inherently unethical, but how they go about it does. TT has told me that Luis was having a difficult time handling both OC and DC positions and so the council as a whole had him step back from one and they basically handed TT the OC position. If this is true, I see fault on GONE council side and unethical actions on TT's side. After TT left with Johnny and the others, I do not think he should have been allowed on council. I questioned the decision then and I still question it now. At the time, I eventually decided that since I'm not in leadership, I don't have the whole picture and they must know something I don't. The way it has been told to me, TT was told that he needed to rejoin us or be catted off the server. With that ultimatum, I'm not sure what compelled them to want him on council afterward. I don't have all the pieces of info and what I do have doesn't make sense.

    Back to TT and unethical actions... If he was planning to take out Luis at the same time he was taking on the OC position, then yes, I feel 100% that he was acting unethically. If he has a problem with Luis, cat Luis and blast him off the server. Don't take all of us innocents with him. TT swears he didn't give getter info out. There seems to be conflicting stories there. SA said that getter info was recently used. VM has brought up STWill and TS's info. If STwill had given us info, then I believe that he was also in the wrong given his position in TS. I never saw any of that, so I don't know if he did or not. It has been said here on the forum, that getter info from GONE has been given out "recently," and had to be used before the info became expired is the words I think he used. Not cool in my book.

    It's been said that TT and BTDT are not together. I don't fault BTDT at all. Some of the IGMs received and a few things posted here from BTDT did lack taste, but I do not fault the group for what happened. If they are given info from TT, that's on TT, not BTDT.

    I had taken a long break from Travian before this server. I did start the Leep account on us4 a couple years ago, but then handed it off to my duals, Boxy and DanChak when life got too crazy to keep it. Before that, it had been probably 5 or so years since I played seriously. I used to be in MORON which was existed just for the shenanigans we came up with and before that I used to run a wing back in the RATAN, KON, ROBR days on us5. The game was quite a bit different back then. There were more players, of course, but the overall feel is different too. I can't quite put my finger on what it is, but it isn't good. This game is dying and stuff like this sure isn't helping.

    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    As for Travian, it's always been my contention that GONE is somewhat overrated, but we'll never know the potential without this event. Maybe it makes them stronger. I hope so.
    If we had a committed OC that actually put forth effort, things would have been very different. You haven't seen what some of us can do. I just wish I had the time. I love planning and running ops.
    Last edited by Pile of Pandas; 03-13-2017 at 09:04 PM.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    Best post ever
    I have to spread rep around and stuffs.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    I have to spread rep around and stuffs.
    Taken care of.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  20. #60

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    My little two cents, written as someone who is not nearly as eloquent or coherent as many people here, will be from what I think is the dissenting opinion on this forum.

    I not only accept the inevitability of spying, I enjoy it.

    I think that spying is one of the most interesting parts of this game. I've had players spy on my alliance, and I've spied on enemy alliances. I think one of the key things I've noticed while spying is that I cannot be a spy for more than a few weeks without forming a strong attachment to a group, and because of that cannot fully backstab a team. I've also never been in a position like LB, so I can't truly understand the position he was in.

    But having said that I don't particularly even mind backstabbing as part of the game, that is only true as long as LB stayed within the rules. When I have spied in the past (It's been years, I'm not nearly committed enough any more to do that sort of thing) if I've sat an account its with the full intention of helping improve that account. Travian's rules are very clear there, and for a good reason.

    To be honest, I don't see much ethically wrong with joining a server with the intention of backstabbing an alliance. I think it is a D*** move, and don't play the game like that, but its part of the game.

    Travian is first and foremost a game about forming alliances to wage a war against other alliances, backstabbing is a key component of that.


    That being said, the other opinions here are just as valid. Really this comes down to a personal moral compass.
    Last edited by Teutons; 03-13-2017 at 11:10 PM.
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  21. #61

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    You I can rep, so I will. You get it. It's war and there's going to be an unfortunate ending for most of us.

    We learn to mitigate those risks. I think my horse is dead. We recognize it's part of the game and we take steps to compartmentalize things, and protect them.

    I can't spy even on someone I don't like at all. We used to join alliances because we knew we didn't need to tag up early to play this game, so there's no need to rush our own embassy. I remember being recruited into one, and just couldn't join, even though I disliked the leader lots.

    I still haven't launched on GONE since this happened, although I'm a BTDT hammer and am ready to. It just feels greasy.

    If I try to tell you that "Spying is bad" then I am a hypocrite for using spy intel early and often in my attacks and our team's defenses.

    What I appreciate about Panda's post is that they are my "enemy", yet they see things clearly and don't accept what they are told blindly. They've shown that several times. Panda's going to learn what they can do to avoid this situation in the future, and if I'm on their team next time I get a better ally, if not, I get a better opponent.

    Win. Win.

  22. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    SA said that getter info was recently used... I never saw any of that, so I don't know if he did or not. It has been said here on the forum, that getter info from GONE has been given out "recently," and had to be used before the info became expired is the words I think he used. Not cool in my book.


    Before that, it had been probably 5 or so years since I played seriously... I used to run a wing back in the RATAN, KON, ROBR days on us5. The game was quite a bit different back then. There were more players, of course, but the overall feel is different too. I can't quite put my finger on what it is, but it isn't good. This game is dying and stuff like this sure isn't helping.


    If we had a committed OC that actually put forth effort, things would have been very different. You haven't seen what some of us can do. I just wish I had the time. I love planning and running ops.
    First point: If you would like clarification I will give it to you. As I have said multiple times now, I have not lied on the forums and have no intention to. Getter information was made available to me and stored the hour before Tik Tok's offensive. You say that's not cool, but as pointed out in the post below, some people think that is cool. I could just as easily say that getting your cap with lvl 19 fields smashed up "isn't cool"... but it is a game mechanic and it hurts the enemy, so we do it anyways. I see information no differently. Respect your opinion, though.

    Second point: It has been about the same amount of time since I had played travian as well. A little over 5 years. Taking the Old Timer account not long before artifacts was the first I had played since apparently the same time as you... in ROBR. I was on the Davius account over there. Had a lot of fun on that server. Not sure if you remember me or not, but I always like to say "hi" to people I've played with before.

    I think what you have noticed that is different is in fact the amount of players. I am used to battlegroups within a very large meta at this point. There is a lot to keep track of in warfare that large-scale, but it is much easier to outwit your opponant with so few players (today) when there are for many less variables to consider. It makes information far more valuable. This also means that every loss represents a large fraction of your faction's firepower... again, making informations used to mitigate losses more valuable. The tournament server that just ended with many thousand players was still much like the servers you are used to.

    Third point: Perhaps you should OC for GONE. They do need one, and you seem level-headed and observant. Please don't let luiss bust up the last of your hammers. It would make the game really boring for our anvils. Many are already building side-hammers to keep having fun. Grab some hammers and come give us a good thrashing!


    Quote Originally Posted by Teutons View Post
    I not only accept the inevitability of spying, I enjoy it.
    Thank you for pointing that out. It is a game mechanic that many enjoy (myself included). There are many ways to destroy your opponant in travian.

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupremeAdmiral View Post
    First point: If you would like clarification I will give it to you. As I have said multiple times now, I have not lied on the forums and have no intention to. Getter information was made available to me and stored the hour before Tik Tok's offensive. You say that's not cool, but as pointed out in the post below, some people think that is cool. I could just as easily say that getting your cap with lvl 19 fields smashed up "isn't cool"... but it is a game mechanic and it hurts the enemy, so we do it anyways. I see information no differently. Respect your opinion, though.

    Second point: It has been about the same amount of time since I had played travian as well. A little over 5 years. Taking the Old Timer account not long before artifacts was the first I had played since apparently the same time as you... in ROBR. I was on the Davius account over there. Had a lot of fun on that server. Not sure if you remember me or not, but I always like to say "hi" to people I've played with before.

    I think what you have noticed that is different is in fact the amount of players. I am used to battlegroups within a very large meta at this point. There is a lot to keep track of in warfare that large-scale, but it is much easier to outwit your opponant with so few players (today) when there are for many less variables to consider. It makes information far more valuable. This also means that every loss represents a large fraction of your faction's firepower... again, making informations used to mitigate losses more valuable. The tournament server that just ended with many thousand players was still much like the servers you are used to.

    Third point: Perhaps you should OC for GONE. They do need one, and you seem level-headed and observant. Please don't let luiss bust up the last of your hammers. It would make the game really boring for our anvils. Many are already building side-hammers to keep having fun. Grab some hammers and come give us a good thrashing!
    Davius account. I think I do remember you, but vaguely. I was "katts" on viciousbobkatts and then switched to the susugam account. I ran the Renegades wing. I went by "Ash" back then, though not anymore.

    I'd love to take on OC, but just don't have the time in real life. Since I last played, I've had 2 sets of young twins and we're in the process of moving/selling our house and I'm also returning to school this summer. REALLY wish I had the time. Maybe I can take on one OP... we'll see, I guess.

  24. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    1. Lord Bane, who is generally believed to be on the Tik Tok account though I have not seen him publicly acknowledge that, spied. Fine by me.
    It's interesting that you lead with this point before discussing my ethics at length. You think you know where I am, you think you know what I've done, yet you did not ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    6. It has been said, though I have no way of determining the truth of this, that Lord Bane violated sitter privilege by acting in ways that did not serve the interests of the account he sat. If true, unethical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane
    Lots of questions about how the Lucifer account gave away the arti combined with one of our 007s slipping up leads to my removal from Roo Hill. Please note I had days warning it was coming as [Roo Hill] was reluctant and I could see the IGMs. I donít sabotage accounts and neither does Classy. Black Ops are spy games, I do have morals and there are rules to the shadow games I play.
    We don't sabotage accounts or violate the sitter or dual feature. Citation above is US2R3. If sabotage were the case Monster's hammer and speed arti would be gone. In fact TiK ToK raided for Monster until the very end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    TikTok's (TT) situation is different than that average spy and he even told me when this all started going down that he wasn't a spy per se
    TiK ToK was an anti TRA asset and never had any intention of harming GONE and was there along with others to strengthen the NE against TRA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    The way it has been told to me, TT was told that he needed to rejoin us or be catted off the server.
    Ethics has a lot of grey areas. If the account is threatened what is the ethical thing to do? Mehrrin`s ethics restrain TiK ToK to deleting. Travian rules state that an account should be run for its benefit. If that's the case is taking two artifacts from one`s oppressor and giving them to ones liberators the ethical thing to do?

    Meherrin did not ask me what I did or how I did it. Is it then unethical to go to the forums with an incomplete understanding and criticize friends and allies?

    Is publicly speculating on BTDT condoned sitter sabotage with out discussing it in private first a betrayal of friends and allies?

    Ethics goes both ways...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    If we had a committed OC that actually put forth effort, things would have been very different.
    You had Luisss and we saw how that went.

  25. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    words
    All I still see is that your feelings got a boo boo on the internet and then baby started flailing his arms.

  26. #66

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    That's the response I'd expect from a troll. If you re-read that post the focus isn't on me as I did not break down her many points nor the accusations of other posts. This is about BTDT. No sitter sabotage and they don't deserve Meherrin`s airing of dirty laundry. Maybe I just respect them more than she does.

  27. #67
    Tradesperson Pile of Pandas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    It's interesting that you lead with this point before discussing my ethics at length. You think you know where I am, you think you know what I've done, yet you did not ask me.




    We don't sabotage accounts or violate the sitter or dual feature. Citation above is US2R3. If sabotage were the case Monster's hammer and speed arti would be gone. In fact TiK ToK raided for Monster until the very end.



    TiK ToK was an anti TRA asset and never had any intention of harming GONE and was there along with others to strengthen the NE against TRA.



    Ethics has a lot of grey areas. If the account is threatened what is the ethical thing to do? Mehrrin`s ethics restrain TiK ToK to deleting. Travian rules state that an account should be run for its benefit. If that's the case is taking two artifacts from one`s oppressor and giving them to ones liberators the ethical thing to do?

    Meherrin did not ask me what I did or how I did it. Is it then unethical to go to the forums with an incomplete understanding and criticize friends and allies?

    Is publicly speculating on BTDT condoned sitter sabotage with out discussing it in private first a betrayal of friends and allies?

    Ethics goes both ways...



    You had Luisss and we saw how that went.
    So, if Luisss had completely left you alone on the forum, you would have deleted after TRA was obliterated?

    I'm not taking the bait about Luisss and his offensive op.

    In defense of Meherrin, I think she was trying to make sense of it as much as the rest of us were. Some of what was said seemed to be emotionally driven. I don't doubt her respect for BTDT.

  28. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    So, if Luisss had completely left you alone on the forum, you would have deleted after TRA was obliterated?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    some of what was said seemed to be emotionally driven.
    And much like Luisss she should have taken a breath and let it go until she was calmer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    I don't doubt her respect for BTDT.
    Some do. That's why I finally commented here.

  29. #69
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    Yes.
    She and several others have been told this multiple times. They've also been told that there's plenty of other people that wouldn't be blowing up GONE villages on a daily basis. They don't listen. Alliances tend to take on the personalities of their leadership.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

    [7:32 AM] Jason (Al Bundy raidslave): Who the **** loses an arti to 18 phalanx
    [7:32 AM] Old Timer US1: The same faction that loses one to 66 legos

  30. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    Alliances tend to take on the personalities of their leadership.
    This can be true and once was for my experiences but GONE is a Frankenstein's monster, really.
    What can be broken, must be broken.

  31. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    That's the response I'd expect from a troll. If you re-read that post the focus isn't on me as I did not break down her many points nor the accusations of other posts. This is about BTDT. No sitter sabotage and they don't deserve Meherrin`s airing of dirty laundry. Maybe I just respect them more than she does.
    Ok buddy. I was talking about your entire demeanor since I started questioning you about the situation. I have given up trying to help you clear your name in this so welcome to Kelsier's Land of Despair, your ticket is free, all you have to do is take it and hop on the ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    So, if Luisss had completely left you alone on the forum, you would have deleted after TRA was obliterated?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    Yes.
    And around this corner Ladies and Gentlemen, we have the child like visage of of Lord Bane. The man that claims he doesn't care what others think yet spent an entire round of Travian sabotaging an alliance over what one person thought of him. Watch as his little child like arms flail about as he cries ladies and gentlemen!

    Next we will see if he has some other foot to shove in his mouth or if he magically becomes "busy in game". Place your bets!

  32. #72
    Tradesperson Pile of Pandas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    She and several others have been told this multiple times. They've also been told that there's plenty of other people that wouldn't be blowing up GONE villages on a daily basis. They don't listen. Alliances tend to take on the personalities of their leadership.
    I was just clarifying. I completely stayed out of politics the first half of the round. I didn't know who TRA was until I started posting on the forum, which really wasn't until somewhere around mid december. Actually, I still don't know who TRA were other than they were led by a misogynistic pedophile. Even after I started posting, there was so much to read, I still don't know 100% what happened earlier on. I wasn't in Easy nor Swat and so I have virtually no knowledge there either.

    LB will tell you, I DO listen. He's probably sick of me messaging him because I DO read and want to figure things out and form my own opinions, but I don't just take one side and follow blindly. I listen to everyone. Now will you lay off me? You're contributing nothing to the discussion, just trolling.
    Last edited by Pile of Pandas; 03-16-2017 at 01:39 AM.

  33. #73
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    Anyone in BTDT is welcome to discuss any aspect of my feelings, beliefs or actions with me, publicly or privately. I don't owe explanations to anyone else.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  34. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    Now will you lay off me? You're contributing nothing to the discussion, just trolling.
    "When all that you have is a hammer, the entire world looks like a nail."

  35. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    I still don't know who TRA were other than they were led by a misogynistic pedophile.
    YES!!! I love this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    LB will tell you, I DO listen.
    She does and doesn't deserve to be trolled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    I don't owe explanations to anyone else.
    Yet they owe you...

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    She does and doesn't deserve to be trolled.
    It wasn't trolling. Maybe I mixed her up with someone else (with all of the extreme defensiveness and the attitude of "any post I don't like = trolling," it's not hard to mix up forum personas) but I distinctly remember you, Cis, and I both saying multiple times that if Luisss had stopped posting when it became clear to literally everyone else that it was in his best interest to do so, you wouldn't have happened.

    If Pandas wasn't online while that was being said, then I apologize. Sometimes you say something enough times it becomes easy to assume everyone's heard it.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

    [7:32 AM] Jason (Al Bundy raidslave): Who the **** loses an arti to 18 phalanx
    [7:32 AM] Old Timer US1: The same faction that loses one to 66 legos

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    It wasn't trolling. Maybe I mixed her up with someone else (with all of the extreme defensiveness and the attitude of "any post I don't like = trolling," it's not hard to mix up forum personas) but I distinctly remember you, Cis, and I both saying multiple times that if Luisss had stopped posting when it became clear to literally everyone else that it was in his best interest to do so, you wouldn't have happened.

    If Pandas wasn't online while that was being said, then I apologize. Sometimes you say something enough times it becomes easy to assume everyone's heard it.
    This is what I said:

    So, if Luisss had completely left you alone on the forum, you would have deleted after TRA was obliterated?

    I'm not taking the bait about Luisss and his offensive op.

    In defense of Meherrin, I think she was trying to make sense of it as much as the rest of us were. Some of what was said seemed to be emotionally driven. I don't doubt her respect for BTDT.
    I'm not sure what was extremely defensive about what I said. I've tried to keep emotion out of my posts for the most part. I don't always succeed, especially when I first began visiting the forum, but I do try.

    I've got my answer now.

  38. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    "When all that you have is a hammer, the entire world looks like a nail."
    Oh, Lurk's anvil is bigger than his hammer.. I sit the account so I can vouch..
    s1 : Storeythor http://travian-reports.net/us/report/2674061c50d
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow View Post
    Gotta be talented to look after 2 WW's simultaneously. Or crazy... Crazy seems more like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gressor2 View Post
    The more I read of OdinLoki's posts, the more I want to play alongside him. Not for the results, as frequently good as they are, but for the sheer fun he seems to have at it. Would + rep if I could, man. Always enjoy reading your stuff... and mostly cringe at the results contained in 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chas00 View Post
    Storeythor,most offensive/defensive account holder on the server.
    Quote Originally Posted by bugzy View Post
    He's a nut and the more the odds are stacked against him, the better he seems to come out of it.

  39. #79
    Consul Dan Chak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    I used to be in MORON which was existed just for the shenanigans we came up with and ...
    Pandas () is the inspiration for the infamous 'Whack-A-Moron'ģ game, one of the funnest parts of that round.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebne View Post
    St. Chak, glorious atelier, faithful servant and bearer of thong,
    the stain of the troll has caused you to be forgotten by many,
    but the true forum invokes you universally as the patron of things despised of;
    pray for me, that finally I may receive the alterations and the couture of thongs in all my fripperies, ornamentations, and trimmings,
    particularly those of purple hue, and that I may read Chak with the thong throughout Eternity.

  40. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by odinloki View Post
    Oh, Lurk's anvil is bigger than his hammer.. I sit the account so I can vouch..
    Point_over_your_head.jpg

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