Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Something from science

  1. #1
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default Something from science

    Just thought it might be interesting to post something that has some underpinnings and isn't just "but I think, because stats". No you're wrong, because stats".

    So how about every day, or when bored enough, find a reasonably legitimate (or be prepared to take it on the chin) source that says something interesting.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  2. #2
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    Why do prestigious hospitals sell snake oil?
    The aspect I am most interested in is the justification of using a placebo in actual medicine. I know some will defend alternative stuff and some will attack, but rather than that, I am interested in how we should get the placebo affect into treatments. There is some evidence that even if you know its a placebo, it will work. So how do you ethically include it, and under what circumstances? I absolutely do not think health insurance should pay out on anything not evidence supported, but placebos are cheap. And I think they have their place, too.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  3. #3
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Murica... **** yeah
    Posts
    6,804

    Default

    Another example the forums are dying, Rok has slipped into dementia and is posting topics and answering herself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  4. #4
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,440

    Default

    The placebo effect is weird. I call for a study that would need to show that even though people know (1) that it's placebo, and (2) that stuff still works sometimes even when the person knows it's placebo, if it STILL works. I legitimately cannot wrap my head around how it could be that people who know they're not getting any medicine could be improving as though they were.

    I have several alternate explanations, and want serious checks on all the methodologies. But for starters, if a person doesn't know they're getting placebo, they assume that their medicine will fix them. If they know it's placebo, they'll be more likely to take other steps. Thus I can see placebo with patient knowledge being better than placebo without, BUT equally as effective as saying "you've got this disease and I'm going to prescribe nothing for that; you probably wanna deal with that bro. Drink more water and get more sleep or something."

    Anyway, Rok, I like this idea but I don't see new research often enough to have stuff to say
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  5. #5
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    They do work
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/p...o-201607079926

    Not for everything, mind you. So the question is... should it become first line medication for things like pain and depression? Obviously not for anything except the lower levels of the spectrum. How would you feel if your doctor said "hmm, yes, you have xxx wrong with you. Try taking these sugar pills for a few weeks and see how it goes".

    Actually my grandmother was a bit of a hypochondriac, and the doctor gave her sugar pills. She didn't know they were, but we did.

    But back to the actual topic. Is there a place for alternative medicine in actual hospitals? And for what?
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  6. #6
    Senator Meherrin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    In a universe of my own design
    Posts
    4,092

    Default

    I will make a confession.

    I know it's utter rot, that there is no scientific rationale whatsoever for it, but.... I use homeopathic remedies for some mysterious symptoms I have that no one can pin down as being indicative of snything... And it works.

    I got into this through my mother-in-law, who will do anything new-agey and woo-woo. She nagged me for so long about some symptoms I had that were similar to something she had gotten relief from through homeopathy that I finally tried it just yo shut her up. And I was as surprised as hell to find that it worked, somewhat, for some things.

    I know it's completely woo-woo, but if something about taking that silly sugar pill convinces my brain to release the right chemicals to allieviate certain things (and they are all things that could be affected by a slight shift in brain/body chemistry, from pain levels to recurring dizziness), then I'll keep doing it, because it makes my life a little less hell and conventional medicine has nothing to offer.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  7. #7
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    The Great Garden State
    Posts
    8,440

    Default

    I'm not denying the results of the studies, I'm proposing alternate explanations for their strange results.

    If a treatment is going to work it's going to work for some reason. If by "alternative medicine" you mean less reliance on pharmaceuticals and chemicals that we traditionally rely on then absolutely. Pharma is evil and the side effects are often pretty bad. If there are cheaper alternatives with less obtrusive side effects then absolutely do that instead. But there's got to be some kind of explanation for why it works, and some kind of evidence that it will work better than giving them nothing.

    As an explanation of that last point: the studies you're pointing to don't compare "you have <minor illness>, and here's some sugar pills" to "you have <minor illness>, now go get some rest." They compare it to "you have <minor illness> and here are real pills." They conclude that since placebo seems to work as well as real pills on some minor illnesses, that there's something going on. I'm arguing that in both cases, the "go get some rest" was really doing all the work all along and was implied! You've got to rule out that people who know they're on placebo pills aren't otherwise compensating by trying other things, too.
    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice... It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, and the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: we are one. No matter the blood. No matter the skin. No matter the world. No matter the star. We are one. No matter the pain. No matter the darkness. No matter the loss. No matter the fear. We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause, we agree to recognise this singular truth and this singular rule: that we must be kind to one another. Because, each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one." ~G'kar

  8. #8
    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    in my body of course
    Posts
    1,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    If there are cheaper alternatives with less obtrusive side effects then absolutely do that instead. But there's got to be some kind of explanation for why it works, and some kind of evidence that it will work better than giving them nothing.
    Pharmaceuticals would not support studies that might result in them saying: "you do not need to buy our medicine". They are more interested in finding medicines with better curing abilities so they can say: "buy our new product it is better".
    http://static.pokemoninfinity.com/im..._forum_sig.png

    trooper? recruit an army and get two recruits from me for your army...

    teacher?
    first five would receive 50 extra coins don't miss the chance...

  9. #9
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I'm not denying the results of the studies, I'm proposing alternate explanations for their strange results.

    If a treatment is going to work it's going to work for some reason. If by "alternative medicine" you mean less reliance on pharmaceuticals and chemicals that we traditionally rely on then absolutely. Pharma is evil and the side effects are often pretty bad. If there are cheaper alternatives with less obtrusive side effects then absolutely do that instead. But there's got to be some kind of explanation for why it works, and some kind of evidence that it will work better than giving them nothing.

    As an explanation of that last point: the studies you're pointing to don't compare "you have <minor illness>, and here's some sugar pills" to "you have <minor illness>, now go get some rest." They compare it to "you have <minor illness> and here are real pills." They conclude that since placebo seems to work as well as real pills on some minor illnesses, that there's something going on. I'm arguing that in both cases, the "go get some rest" was really doing all the work all along and was implied! You've got to rule out that people who know they're on placebo pills aren't otherwise compensating by trying other things, too.
    I might have posted the wrong link. No one got any real medicine. Will find the right link tomorrow.

    Pharma is not evil. Some aspects of it are unsavoury, like anything. Like big organic. Drugs save and extend millions of lives daily.

    Mehr, even I indulge in things I know probably won't work. I take multivitamins and omega 3. I have expensive pee.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  10. #10
    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    in my body of course
    Posts
    1,934
    http://static.pokemoninfinity.com/im..._forum_sig.png

    trooper? recruit an army and get two recruits from me for your army...

    teacher?
    first five would receive 50 extra coins don't miss the chance...

  11. #11
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0015591 the placebo trial.

    Placebos administered without deception may be an effective treatment for IBS. Further research is warranted in IBS, and perhaps other conditions, to elucidate whether physicians can benefit patients using placebos consistent with informed consent.


    He's a chiropractor that sells stuff on the internet. The MOST likely to be wrong of many options.
    Last edited by Rokchick; 03-09-2017 at 11:38 PM.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  12. #12
    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    in my body of course
    Posts
    1,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    He's a chiropractor that sells stuff on the internet. The MOST likely to be wrong of many options.
    Why you care about the other stuff? He is roughly calculating your nutrition intake according to the standards for free. Then, will tell you what nutritions you lack the most (lowest 3) and from which food you can get them.
    Last edited by н-υ-п-т-ε-я; 03-10-2017 at 02:05 AM.
    http://static.pokemoninfinity.com/im..._forum_sig.png

    trooper? recruit an army and get two recruits from me for your army...

    teacher?
    first five would receive 50 extra coins don't miss the chance...

  13. #13
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by н-υ-п-т-ε-я View Post
    Why you care about the other stuff? He is roughly calculating your nutrition intake according to the standards for free. Then, will tell you what nutritions you lack the most (lowest 3) and from which food you can get them.
    OK, let me put it more simply. He has a vested interest in getting you to need nutrients, and his paid help. If he gives some peer reviewed reports about how he gets those nutrients from the foods, or how he works out what you need (is it based on weight, age, activity levels, amount of time outdoors, how long nutrients stay active, half life in body - why only one day -, etc. etc.) then he might have some credibility. But anyone who cries foul at big pharma and then trusts what an internet salesman tells them has a big credibility gap.

    Edit.. a very quick internet search came up with these:
    https://www.casewatch.org/board/chiro/berg.shtml
    https://www.nameandshame.com/company...ic-berg/page-1
    http://drericbergscam.blogspot.com.a...is-before.html

    So, no. I won't do his test.
    Last edited by Rokchick; 03-10-2017 at 03:35 AM.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  14. #14
    Senator Meherrin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    In a universe of my own design
    Posts
    4,092

    Default

    I have a particular dislike of internet scam artists.

    My mother-in-law, the one who loves the woo-woo stuff? She was recently diagnosed with stage 4 non-Hodgkins lymphoma. It's a fairly treatable cancer, even in the later stages, but chemo is necessary.

    So instead of doing the chemo, she's buying hundreds of dollar's worth of 'cancer-fighting herbs' off the internet and is taking those instead of following her oncologist's advice. And there's not a damn thing we can do about it.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  15. #15
    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    in my body of course
    Posts
    1,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    OK, let me put it more simply. He has a vested interest in getting you to need nutrients, and his paid help. If he gives some peer reviewed reports about how he gets those nutrients from the foods, or how he works out what you need (is it based on weight, age, activity levels, amount of time outdoors, how long nutrients stay active, half life in body - why only one day -, etc. etc.) then he might have some credibility. But anyone who cries foul at big pharma and then trusts what an internet salesman tells them has a big credibility gap.
    He is using the data from other studies that you consider credible for this particular test.

    He is giving you suggestions for basic food that will give you what you lack. (and advertising for whatever wheat grass he is selling that I don't care about)

    Using his "Dietary Nutrient Assessment" does not mean by any chance that I do agree/believe in all his other stuff.

    His "Dietary Nutrient Assessment" it is estimated, lack many foods, and depends on current "nutritional science" which is not a fact.



    These are not related to the particular subject of nutrition from regular food.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    So, no. I won't do his test.
    http://static.pokemoninfinity.com/im..._forum_sig.png

    trooper? recruit an army and get two recruits from me for your army...

    teacher?
    first five would receive 50 extra coins don't miss the chance...

  16. #16
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by н-υ-п-т-ε-я View Post
    He is using the data from other studies that you consider credible for this particular test.

    He is giving you suggestions for basic food that will give you what you lack. (and advertising for whatever wheat grass he is selling that I don't care about)

    Using his "Dietary Nutrient Assessment" does not mean by any chance that I do agree/believe in all his other stuff.

    His "Dietary Nutrient Assessment" it is estimated, lack many foods, and depends on current "nutritional science" which is not a fact.
    These are not related to the particular subject of nutrition from regular food.
    Well pardon me for being sensible, but if I need to know what I should be eating, I'll ask a dietician. But, since I don't eat the same thing everyday, have a varied diet with lots of fresh FRUIT, I'm probably fine.

    And if the guys is a scamster and crook, I'll stay away. You should too.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  17. #17
    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    in my body of course
    Posts
    1,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Well pardon me for being sensible, but if I need to know what I should be eating, I'll ask a dietician. But, since I don't eat the same thing everyday, have a varied diet with lots of fresh FRUIT, I'm probably fine.
    Leafy greens and fruits (botanical) would give you most of the minerals and vitamins, except few that are animal based!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    And if the guys is a scamster and crook, I'll stay away. You should too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Berg
    *These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Information on this site is provided for informational purposes only, it is not meant to substitute medical advice provided by your physician or any other medical professional. You should not use the information contained on this site for diagnosing or treating a health problem, disease, or prescribing any medication. Please read product label before use. Best results are only achieved when combined with diet and exercise program. Results not typical for any or all claims.
    http://static.pokemoninfinity.com/im..._forum_sig.png

    trooper? recruit an army and get two recruits from me for your army...

    teacher?
    first five would receive 50 extra coins don't miss the chance...

  18. #18
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by н-υ-п-т-ε-я View Post
    Berg disclaimer!
    So he even tells you it's all bollocks. Psst btw, it doesn't do anything.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  19. #19

    Default

    Is this the first year without the Travies?

  20. #20
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Is this the first year without the Travies?
    Scientifically speaking, it's not.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  21. #21
    Creep-er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    childhood :D
    Posts
    1,671

    Default

    I have one tiny reservation about your wording: an inert (i.e. placebo) treatment is not the same as a false (i.e. snake oil) treatment. Evidence-based medicine is broad enough to accept that whatever works in a well-designed trial may be efficacious (whether the evidence is strong enough to include in a treatment guideline, or simply hypothesis generating, is another story).

    So...is the evidence strong enough? I quickly skimmed through a couple abstracts by Dr. Kaptchuk from one of the articles you linked about placebo effect. The first one was a study on MDD from the early 2000's that only involved 20 patients--purely hypothesis generating. The second one I read, the randomized trial conducted on IBS patients, was slightly more convincing but still only strong enough to fall into the "hypothesis generating" category of evidence. Mainly due to this part of its design:

    Patients were randomized to either open-label placebo pills presented as “placebo pills made of an inert substance, like sugar pills, that have been shown in clinical studies to produce significant improvement in IBS symptoms through mind-body self-healing processes” or no-treatment controls with the same quality of interaction with providers.
    1. The implicit definition of "placebo effect" as framed by this study is that the benefit of an inert treatment is interpreted on the subjects' end. I see no way of making it single blinded to the investigators while preserving the influence of the placebo treatment, but this opens the study up a very obvious source of bias on the investigators' side. I'd like to know what defined "the same quality of interaction" and how investigators were able to provide that to both arms of the study without influencing their subjects.

    2. The primary endpoint is the IBS Global Assessment of Improvement. This involves the provider asking his/her patient whether their symptoms have worsened or improved, based on an ordinal scale. Again, the fact that the provider interacts with the patient to obtain a patient-reported score opens the study up to the same vulnerability I mentioned above. (This is also a highly generalized endpoint that represents one subjective facet of IBS disease progression.)

    3. Miller 2014 comments extensively on the large placebo effect in IBS trials, and how to minimize it:

    Therefore, IBS trials of less than 5*weeks duration are not recommended due to unstable placebo group estimates while trials of 5 to 12*weeks duration must account for a considerable placebo eff ect with concomitant increases in sample size during the planning phase of the trial. From a study design perspective, it appears that a trial of longer duration with less frequent follow-up visits may help minimize the placebo effect and, consequently, improve statistical power.
    This review article was written 2014. Kaptchuk's placebo effect trial was 3 weeks. I would hastily surmise that Kaptchuk's 2010 study brought more insight to IBS trial design than it did to overall placebo effect. Kaptchuk et al concluded that open label placebo may be an effective treatment for IBS. Reading between the lines, what they really mean is that they observed significant improvement in how patients subjectively feel every 7 days for up to 3 weeks. The general science article that you linked (written in 2016) appears to overreach for a conclusion that is slightly more appealing than the actual conclusion of the trial. Then again, the article does claim at the end, as most do, that "more research must be done."

    (If you're wondering why I invested some time into this, I only have two words: Spring Break.)
    Last edited by Creep-er; 03-15-2017 at 04:52 AM.
    "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost."

  22. #22
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    Yeah, I agree with most of what you pulled out. It is a fascinating area though. Very difficult to study. But the original post was about real hospitals using it (which brings to mind that hilarious sketch the british comedians did about the homeopathic emergency department). Obviously, for things that require actual medicine, it should be kept awa with a large stick. But what about where there is some large component of brain override? IBS and neuropathic pain spring to mid. There will be others. Should doctors use the "services" of woosters to enhance their treatments?

    I have always thought that in some ways the woo industry saves the real medical system (although not the patients) some money, because some of the patients of naturopaths and homeopaths, etc., come from the ranks of "the worried well". People who have nothing serious wrong with them and just need a few weeks of being told it's being fixed, and not worrying to get rid of it. But the woosters would then need to know immediately what they SHOULD treat (with magical air) and what they should pass on straight away. And they don't.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  23. #23
    Creep-er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    childhood :D
    Posts
    1,671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Yeah, I agree with most of what you pulled out. It is a fascinating area though. Very difficult to study. But the original post was about real hospitals using it (which brings to mind that hilarious sketch the british comedians did about the homeopathic emergency department). Obviously, for things that require actual medicine, it should be kept awa with a large stick. But what about where there is some large component of brain override? IBS and neuropathic pain spring to mid. There will be others. Should doctors use the "services" of woosters to enhance their treatments?

    I have always thought that in some ways the woo industry saves the real medical system (although not the patients) some money, because some of the patients of naturopaths and homeopaths, etc., come from the ranks of "the worried well". People who have nothing serious wrong with them and just need a few weeks of being told it's being fixed, and not worrying to get rid of it. But the woosters would then need to know immediately what they SHOULD treat (with magical air) and what they should pass on straight away. And they don't.
    Have you experienced a lot of the "worried well"? I often catch myself thinking this way, but I have to tell myself that if a someone continues to strongly insist that they have a problem, then there definitely IS a problem...of some sort, though maybe not the problem that person has in mind.
    "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost."

  24. #24
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    -32 degrees latitude, free, safe and warm
    Posts
    8,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Creep-er View Post
    Have you experienced a lot of the "worried well"? I often catch myself thinking this way, but I have to tell myself that if a someone continues to strongly insist that they have a problem, then there definitely IS a problem...of some sort, though maybe not the problem that person has in mind.
    Yes, I know quite a few. Usually yummy mummies or older versions, affluent, but sadly, mostly women. You can pick them from their "Oh I had a terrible case of xxxxx but my xxx(insert woo operator) cleared it up in only a few weeks. Sometimes there really is something wrong with them, but it self clears.

    One of my GP friends once said if she could say to everyone, without looking at them, who walked through the door "come back in 2 weeks if it's not getting better", at least 60% would be fine and not come back. Might save $, but there'd be an occasional missed critical issue!
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  25. #25
    Creep-er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    childhood :D
    Posts
    1,671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Yes, I know quite a few. Usually yummy mummies or older versions, affluent, but sadly, mostly women. You can pick them from their "Oh I had a terrible case of xxxxx but my xxx(insert woo operator) cleared it up in only a few weeks. Sometimes there really is something wrong with them, but it self clears.

    One of my GP friends once said if she could say to everyone, without looking at them, who walked through the door "come back in 2 weeks if it's not getting better", at least 60% would be fine and not come back. Might save $, but there'd be an occasional missed critical issue!
    Oh, I was thinking more of those people who experience nonspecific symptoms for a good while, and insist that they have self-diagnosed Chronic Lyme Disease or something like that.
    "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •