View Poll Results: Do you approve such tax?

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  • Against

    2 18.18%
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Thread: UK Sugar/obesity Tax

  1. #41
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    So you just ignore my comments on offset? K
    I have to spell it out for you? It isn't enough to point out that it doesn't actually solve any problems if reducing inequality is your goal?

    Fine. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. If the people using these things are poor then it is at least somewhat likely that they are on some form of public assistance. So they show up at the grocery store, gas station etc, buy food using their EBT card/WIC coupons etc and pay cash for their tobacco and lottery tickets. This happens and it happens every hour right down the street from where I live. So you can tax the ever-living **** out of cigarettes, have your state lottery etc all of which just goes back into a broken system. Unless you fix the source of the problem there's absolutely no point in forcing people to spend more money to have it. Same way with illegal substances - you can imprison people all you want, make it harder/less profitable to sell them (though the irony about drug laws is that there's a solid link between difficulty and profitability) etc but that doesn't actually accomplish much.

    Likewise, fast food has addictive properties to it. Taxing it won't get people off it and it sure as hell won't get any wage gaps reduced or closed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Seriously, there are some people who cannot afford to make the trade-offs necessary to do bulk buying or buying stuff on sale. If your budget for essentials has no wiggle room, and i have known some people, myself included during a few periods of unemployment when I was young, who were educated, understood budgets, but simoly did not havr a few extra dollar for those serendipitous purchases.
    As I said I agree with you about the buying in bulk thing. But my original point was that it is still cheaper to go to grocery stores rather than living off the fast food diet and I stand by that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Have you read Barbara Erenreich's book on being one of the working poor, Nickled and Dimed? It's rather enlightening.
    No. I know some of the people at the St. Vincents I belong to have, though. I'll ask to borrow a copy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    You know, I'm rather offended by the 'keyboard warrior' label.
    Was it at any way directed at you? No? Then leave it between Rok and me.
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  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    80% lean hamburger really isn't terrible...I guess it depends on whether or not you drain/pat out the grease after cooking.

    But simply saying "it is what it is" and leaving it at that isn't helpful IMO. That's a stance that just allows bad stuff to continue happening.
    80% lean means at least 20% of your burger is fat, and wasted. But it's cheaper, or at least appears cheaper and when you are poor you aim for the cheaper.
    I don't think it should be left at that, but there is no way the Republicans are going to work towards a sugar tax unless properly bribed to do so. Could start a wonderful program like "Just Say 'No' to Sugar', but it didn't work with drugs, I don't think it will be successful here.
    Besides, I'm the old fat guy behind the screen. Last person here to be telling anyone to cut back on the sugar intake.
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  3. #43
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Chak View Post
    80% lean means at least 20% of your burger is fat, and wasted. But it's cheaper, or at least appears cheaper and when you are poor you aim for the cheaper.
    It depends on pricing. Here it is an extra dollar a pound to get the 87% stuff, so not cost effective.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    I have to spell it out for you? It isn't enough to point out that it doesn't actually solve any problems if reducing inequality is your goal?

    Fine. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. If the people using these things are poor then it is at least somewhat likely that they are on some form of public assistance. So they show up at the grocery store, gas station etc, buy food using their EBT card/WIC coupons etc and pay cash for their tobacco and lottery tickets. This happens and it happens every hour right down the street from where I live. So you can tax the ever-living **** out of cigarettes, have your state lottery etc all of which just goes back into a broken system. Unless you fix the source of the problem there's absolutely no point in forcing people to spend more money to have it. Same way with illegal substances - you can imprison people all you want, make it harder/less profitable to sell them (though the irony about drug laws is that there's a solid link between difficulty and profitability) etc but that doesn't actually accomplish much.
    So, enlighten me! You sit there and insult the hell out of me and add nothing to the discussion yourself. You firmly oppose a tax, but give nothing back instead. OK, you think a tax is unfair EVEN if it is offset. What do you propose then, apart from education which every one agrees on? Is this just your gubmint is bad fever breaking out? It's the inequality causing the issue, but you give nothing except "I'm a hero, I help out personally myself". You don't know if I do that either. But even if I did, it won't make any difference to the issue. It takes a political solution and we keyboard warriors are just as likely to get that as we helpers. More actually. How many personal replies and issue discussions have you had with your potential reps and party leaders?
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  5. #45
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    It depends on pricing. Here it is an extra dollar a pound to get the 87% stuff, so not cost effective.
    You're ignoring prep value.

    People working hourly at the bottom don't always have time to make food, and fast food comes cooked. Or... "cooked." So given that it's very cheap AND time effective, it beats out healthier options unless you've got the time/money to do better.

  6. #46
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    It's not cheaper. I don't know how many times I have to say this.

    I can get a Digiorno's pizza for well under the cost of a fast food "value" meal and it feeds more people. Plus you don't feel hungry 40 minutes after eating it.

    Prep time is a gross exaggeration if you know what you're doing. And I know that they don't since they weren't taught how. Just saying, the convenience of fast food really isn't that much of a convenience.
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    You're ignoring prep value.

    People working hourly at the bottom don't always have time to make food, and fast food comes cooked. Or... "cooked." So given that it's very cheap AND time effective, it beats out healthier options unless you've got the time/money to do better.
    You can get a bag of chicken tenders and a bag of french fries. Heat up time is 20 minutes (3 minutes in a deep fryer). Couldn't get easier. Total cost is $8, but it will feed 5 people.

    Or a marinated pork chop (Smithfield brand) is $5 for 3 lbs, you cook it at 450 for 20 minutes. Heat up some instant mash and microwave some frozen veggies. Total cost: $5 for the pork loin, $2 for the mashed potatoes, $2 for the veggies. $9 total, feeds a family of five. Prep and cook time 20 minutes total.

    Two boxes of spaghetti, $2. A can of spaghetti sauce, $2. A loaf of Walmart bread, $1. $5 total. total time 30 minutes. Feeds 5 people.

    I can go on and on. Let's copy the veggies and mashed potatoes at $4. The meat can be a bag of frozen fish fillets (50 cents each), so an extra $2.50 for a family of 5. $6.50 total. Total prep and cook time, 25 minutes.

    Oor, you can get each person a burger and fry (2 for $3 deal at McD, assuming McDouble and medium fry), 5 people equals $15. Prep time takes 5 minutes in line, 10 minutes round trip. 15 minutes total.



    The total prep time averages out. The cost is definitely more expensive.

    And when you look at the amount of food you're eating, you're going to be eating less, as Lurk said.

    If you eat a McDouble and medium fry for $3, you're getting about 8 oz (half pound) of food. If instead you get a frozen dinner for $2 (they have some awesome ones now), you're getting 15 oz (almost a pound) for 30% cheaper. If you eat the McDonald's, you'll be hungry again in a few hours, and probably eat more often, thus spending even more on food that day.

    Also, if you buy 5 frozen dinners at $2 each, you spend $10 total. Total prep and cook time is $30 minutes. And it's more filling.



    EDIT: A McDouble and Medium fry is 9.5 oz.

    Source: http://fastfoodnutrition.org/mcdonal...iches/mcdouble

    and

    http://fastfoodnutrition.org/mcdonal...h-fries/medium
    Last edited by Sapient; 03-10-2017 at 01:28 AM.
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  8. #48
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Idk, this explanation seems better than "I guess they're just dumb" which is all that you and Sap are left with (?)

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Idk, this explanation seems better than "I guess they're just dumb" which is all that you and Sap are left with (?)
    But your explanation is statistically wrong. As proven above. It sounds better to just say that a stork delivers babies to newlyweds, so maybe we should rewrite medical journals?
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  10. #50

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    Over 2 pound Walmart pizza for $8 ($6 where I live):

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Marketsid....3-oz/36929108

    Feeds 5 people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Dark Tower View Post
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    I'm not very bright.

  11. #51

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    Human behavior is complex and difficult to change. Just gotta go with it, people will eat what they're going to eat. My monday-friday lunch is spinach with arugula, topped with cucumbers, cracked pepper and olive oil, sometimes gorgonzola, feta, or parmesan. It's inexpensive, healthy, fast and no animal impact - but, that's just my lifestyle choice.

    A tax on sugary drinks may be a benefit, as it could encourage makers to use less sugar in beverages, perhaps a solution would be to create a sort of cap-and-trade which would allow soda makers to sell sugary drinks if they also market non-sugar alternatives like sparkling water.

    This discussion reminds of a local news piece a few days ago on rising gas prices, there was person who was shown to be driving a Chevy Yukon (a really big SUV) and was saying: "I don't know how I can afford these rising gas prices, it's hard to take my daughter to school."

  12. #52

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    Though, Lurk would be hard pressed to beat a 2.5 lb Little Caesars $5 hot-n-ready.
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Human behavior is complex and difficult to change. Just gotta go with it, people will eat what they're going to eat. My monday-friday lunch is spinach with arugula, topped with cucumbers, cracked pepper and olive oil, sometimes gorgonzola, feta, or parmesan. It's inexpensive, healthy, fast and no animal impact - but, that's just my lifestyle choice.

    A tax on sugary drinks may be a benefit, as it could encourage makers to use less sugar in beverages, perhaps a solution would be to create a sort of cap-and-trade which would allow soda makers to sell sugary drinks if they also market non-sugar alternatives like sparkling water.

    This discussion reminds of a local news piece a few days ago on rising gas prices, there was person who was shown to be driving a Chevy Yukon (a really big SUV) and was saying: "I don't know how I can afford these rising gas prices, it's hard to take my daughter to school."
    I could see myself getting on board with the tax if it actually helped overweight people or helped curb childhood obesity.

    It seems like it's just another revenue source though.
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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapient View Post
    Though, Lurk would be hard pressed to beat a 2.5 lb Little Caesars $5 hot-n-ready.
    LOfuqingLz

    on a more serious note, some families actually live in their cars, an estimated 2,000 people in San Diego alone live in their vehicles - perhaps other parts of the nation has similar numbers. Not everyone has a kitchen and therefore their only go-to food is fast food.
    Last edited by Summer; 03-10-2017 at 01:50 AM.

  15. #55
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    A tax on sugary drinks may be a benefit
    Not to the people who get fired because of the tax.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapient View Post
    Though, Lurk would be hard pressed to beat a 2.5 lb Little Caesars $5 hot-n-ready.
    Heh. Yes. How many of you EVER eat fast food? Why? If it is so easy and cheap to make better food yourself, why would any of you EVER have fast food? That is pretty much the same as why anyone does. It's quick, cheap and convenient. If you grow up as it as a main source of food it becomes a social conditioning issue. Those golden arches adds work. As do the happy meals. So if you want to change things, you have to either stop the advertising (yeah, right, in capitalism is king country? I doubt it) or try to counteract it. That costs money.

    Just as an aside, We seem to be running anti-fast food adds here at the moment. Interestingly it annoys my thin sons no end. I wonder if it will have any effect.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapient View Post
    But your explanation is statistically wrong. As proven above. It sounds better to just say that a stork delivers babies to newlyweds, so maybe we should rewrite medical journals?
    Statistically?

    You've shown that it's irrational to act that way from a cost/benefit perspective given the controls of cost and time and given that a person has the ability to use appliances. You didn't show any statistics that contradict my claim, which was "poor people do this because it's relatively cheaper / easier / faster than healthier options."

    On the "given that the person has the ability to use appliances" bit -- I consistently invited a friend of mine from high school to my house because they paid electric bills 2-3 months a year depending on how well they were doing that year. No power -> no appliances. Just saying.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Heh. Yes. How many of you EVER eat fast food? Why? If it is so easy and cheap to make better food yourself, why would any of you EVER have fast food? That is pretty much the same as why anyone does. It's quick, cheap and convenient. If you grow up as it as a main source of food it becomes a social conditioning issue. Those golden arches adds work. As do the happy meals. So if you want to change things, you have to either stop the advertising (yeah, right, in capitalism is king country? I doubt it) or try to counteract it. That costs money.

    Just as an aside, We seem to be running anti-fast food adds here at the moment. Interestingly it annoys my thin sons no end. I wonder if it will have any effect.
    McDonalds is often 24hrs and conveniently located, I used to go often in the morning as there was one on the way to my work, I would go there for coffee and breakfast, McDonalds also has healthy options such as yogurts and salads.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I consistently invited a friend of mine from high school to my house because they paid electric bills 2-3 months a year depending on how well they were doing that year.
    Irresponsible people? Did they have electronics like televisions or gaming systems?

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    , McDonalds also has healthy options such as yogurts and salads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Heh. Yes. How many of you EVER eat fast food?
    I've eaten out twice in the last month, once at fast food once at a local diner. I've started working a lot of nights and sometimes my sleep schedule doesn't accomodate making a lunch to pack. These days I pretty much just live off salads; I make my own dressing and everything and get a wide variety of greens and random toppings. Basically an imitation Dole salad kit except it's much cheaper to buy the components in bulk and parcel it out from there. Plus I add chicken and shredded cheese.

    But it makes me cringe. Including the chicken, cheese etc each of my meals costs $3.28. If I wake up late and have to grab a salad from somewhere else - I can take it to go from the diner - it's at least 6.5. I absolutely hate spending over $3 more for what's basically the same thing so I do it only in an emergency. I can't imagine living off fast food and paying that much all the time; I'd have no money and I make at least 3x minimum wage.
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  21. #61
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    If you can afford a slow cooker prep time would be minimal!

    Aren't slow cookers popular in the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Chevy Yukon (a really big SUV)
    a chevy would be Taho a GMC would be Yukon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Statistically?

    You've shown that it's irrational to act that way from a cost/benefit perspective given the controls of cost and time and given that a person has the ability to use appliances. You didn't show any statistics that contradict my claim, which was "poor people do this because it's relatively cheaper / easier / faster than healthier options."

    On the "given that the person has the ability to use appliances" bit -- I consistently invited a friend of mine from high school to my house because they paid electric bills 2-3 months a year depending on how well they were doing that year. No power -> no appliances. Just saying.
    Sorry, meant to say mathematically. But I'll settle for inherently.
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  23. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by н-υ-п-т-ε-я View Post
    If you can afford a slow cooker prep time would be minimal!

    Aren't slow cookers popular in the US?



    a chevy would be Taho a GMC would be Yukon.
    Summer can't see past the "zero emissions" of his Tesla. And his arugula in the morning.

    I eat a clif bar for breakfast.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Dark Tower View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
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  24. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by н-υ-п-т-ε-я View Post
    If you can afford a slow cooker prep time would be minimal!

    Aren't slow cookers popular in the US?



    a chevy would be Taho a GMC would be Yukon.
    They're the same company, I remember the camera showing Yukon, but this is from memory from watching the local news a few nights ago.

  25. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by н-υ-п-т-ε-я View Post
    If you can afford a slow cooker prep time would be minimal!

    Aren't slow cookers popular in the US?



    a chevy would be Taho a GMC would be Yukon.
    Yeah, drive congrats are popular too. Which would reduce the carb cost for the most part. Not to mention, rice cooked keep rice fresh for up to three days. It was nice to always have warm rice on hand in my Korean home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mod Dark Tower View Post
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  26. #66
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    I just go to Costco and Sam's depending on my fiance and mines needs. We eat fairly reasonable unless she makes me cook her something fancy. We try very hard to eat balanced meals. I've given up on fruit to be honest (It always goes bad >.<). We only consume fruit through either V8 or Bothouse juices which are actually a fantastic substitute for the real deal. I try to stick to 93% - 97% Lean beef or chicken. Only whole grains for carbs. Anyone tried the pasta made with vegetables? Thats what we try and stick to with a pesto sauce or tomato basil.
    Something about how I am

  27. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tineren View Post
    In general the "facts" about the dangers of artificial sweeteners have a truth truth level usually associated with anti-vaxxers.
    Are you saying people who think artificial sweeteners are bad are in the same thought process that vaccines cause Autism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Heh. Yes. How many of you EVER eat fast food? Why? If it is so easy and cheap to make better food yourself, why would any of you EVER have fast food? That is pretty much the same as why anyone does. It's quick, cheap and convenient. If you grow up as it as a main source of food it becomes a social conditioning issue. Those golden arches adds work. As do the happy meals. So if you want to change things, you have to either stop the advertising (yeah, right, in capitalism is king country? I doubt it) or try to counteract it. That costs money.

    Just as an aside, We seem to be running anti-fast food adds here at the moment. Interestingly it annoys my thin sons no end. I wonder if it will have any effect.
    I eat Taco Bell once a month. Mainly to eat the lovely abominations of Dorito Tacos or the Crispy Chicken shell taco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    I've eaten out twice in the last month, once at fast food once at a local diner. I've started working a lot of nights and sometimes my sleep schedule doesn't accomodate making a lunch to pack. These days I pretty much just live off salads; I make my own dressing and everything and get a wide variety of greens and random toppings. Basically an imitation Dole salad kit except it's much cheaper to buy the components in bulk and parcel it out from there. Plus I add chicken and shredded cheese.

    But it makes me cringe. Including the chicken, cheese etc each of my meals costs $3.28. If I wake up late and have to grab a salad from somewhere else - I can take it to go from the diner - it's at least 6.5. I absolutely hate spending over $3 more for what's basically the same thing so I do it only in an emergency. I can't imagine living off fast food and paying that much all the time; I'd have no money and I make at least 3x minimum wage.
    I have begun to hate going out to eat. I'm aware of the mark up at restaurants since I work in them.

    It is a minimum 3-4 times markup of the cost of food at any place you eat. Knowing that I'm eating something that I can easily make at home gives me no reason to go out.

    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    I just go to Costco and Sam's depending on my fiance and mines needs. We eat fairly reasonable unless she makes me cook her something fancy. We try very hard to eat balanced meals. I've given up on fruit to be honest (It always goes bad >.<). We only consume fruit through either V8 or Bothouse juices which are actually a fantastic substitute for the real deal. I try to stick to 93% - 97% Lean beef or chicken. Only whole grains for carbs. Anyone tried the pasta made with vegetables? Thats what we try and stick to with a pesto sauce or tomato basil.
    Are you asking about zoodles?

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foley View Post
    Are you asking about zoodles?
    Barilla veggie pasta actually. It's fantastic in a pasta salad.


    Also I'd like to note that we do eat out. ONLY for meals I can't make myself. I can't cook Mexican food better than a few restaurants.... The 3 - 4 times markup is so someone gets to live off serving me. I deal with it because it's for 'the greater good'....
    Something about how I am

  29. #69

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    When talking about poverty and food choices, even setting aside questions of access to healthy food, we seem to have fallen into an either-or when discussing prices: healthy food vs. take-out fast food.

    There's also the issue of healthy food bought from grocery stores vs. unhealthy food bought from grocery stores. And the price argument looks a little different there. And this is what i've mostly been thinking of in terms of price, whereas I think others have been focusing on the cost of healthy food vs. fast food from take out joints, convenience stores and so on.

    Processed foods that are high in fat and sugar, and low in nutrients, are often cheaper than healthy foods.

    Something else on poverty and food purchases for consideration:

    http://frac.org/wp-content/uploads/f...onnections.pdf
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  30. #70
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    So, obviously none of you are average Americans then. Such righteous diets!
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

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    trooper? recruit an army and get two recruits from me for your army...

    teacher?
    first five would receive 50 extra coins don't miss the chance...

  32. #72

    Meherrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    So, obviously none of you are average Americans then. Such righteous diets!
    We do order Thai or Indian, maybe once a week. And occasionally pizza, my preference is thin crust with mushrooms, onion and pineapple and extra chilies, garlic and oregano.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  33. #73
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    I'll never understand you thin crust people. You're missing out on all that wonderful crust!

  34. #74

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    What is thin crust?

    Normal pizza?

  35. #75
    Consul The Burninator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foley View Post
    What is thin crust?

    Normal pizza?
    Thin crust is where the crust is no thicker than the breading under the whole pie. Or maybe SLIGHTLY thicker. Regular crust is big enough to be a couple millimeters taller than the rest of the pie covered in tomato, cheese, and whatever else you're eating on it.

    (Did the chef just make a big ol' circle of dough or did he roll the edges into normal thickness?)
    Last edited by The Burninator; 03-10-2017 at 03:11 PM.

  36. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    I'll never understand you thin crust people. You're missing out on all that wonderful crust!
    Processed grain products are not my friend. I reduce a known consequence by reducing the amount of flour in the pizza. Also, where possible, by ordering whole wheat crust.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  37. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    Thin crust is where the crust is no thicker than the breading under the whole pie. Or maybe SLIGHTLY thicker. Regular crust is big enough to be a couple millimeters taller than the rest of the pie covered in tomato, cheese, and whatever else you're eating on it.

    (Did the chef just make a big ol' circle of dough or did he roll the edges into normal thickness?)
    Oh yea. I call thin crust "fancy" pizza. That overpriced artisinal crap.

    I'm all about a regular pie no extra toppings. Also has to be in NY.

  38. #78
    Artisan RycorAbsinthe's Avatar
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    I eat a lot more than 23 pounds of pizza...
    Something about how I am

  39. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    I eat a lot more than 23 pounds of pizza...
    A year? Definitely the same here. I usually have pizza almost once a week.

  40. #80
    Artisan RycorAbsinthe's Avatar
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    When we make it from scratch it's probably a pound a slice....
    Something about how I am

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