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Thread: Despite all our political beliefs... Do we all see this as wrong?

  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    This happens every single time. The fact that illegals commit crimes at a higher rate is presented. A leftist then tries to say b-but legal immigrants. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate. Are you refuting it?
    You presented no facts, you just made a statement without any sources to prove it.

    You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
    Last edited by Summer; 03-05-2017 at 05:35 PM.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    You presented no facts
    Illegals committing crimes at a higher rate is a fact. I appreciate you admitting this is a fact by not daring to claim otherwise.

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Illegals committing crimes at a higher rate is a fact. I appreciate you admitting this is a fact by not daring to claim otherwise.
    Just post where you got your source of information, it would back up your claim. If you make statements without sources or facts, your statements are just hearsay or about as valid as gossip.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    You presented no facts, you just made a statement without any sources to prove it.

    You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
    To be fair, you claimed Mike Pence was our president. Summer, are you claiming all legal immigrants commit crimes? That's a pretty broad brush to paint immigrants with. Is this the love and tolerance the left is known for?
    Last edited by The Blazin1; 03-05-2017 at 06:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    To be fair, you claimed Mike Pence was our president. Summer, are you claiming all legal immigrants commit crimes? That's a pretty broad brush to paint immigrants with. Is this the love and tolerance the left is known for?
    Trolling again?

    Summer did not make that claim about legal immigrants.

    Again, please post your sources for the claim that undocumented immigrants commit violent crimes at a higher rate than American citizens.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  6. #126
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    My claim is all illegal immigrants are criminals. You can't refute it. Where did I say violent? Are you trolling?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    My claim is all illegal immigrants are criminals. You can't refute it. Where did I say violent? Are you trolling?
    It should be noted that the crime they committed is overstaying their visa or not obtaining a visa before entering the U.S.

    I did title a thread "President Pence meets with European Leaders" and then I added in the OP "While Trump gives a speech in Florida." - I also attached an article that detailed Vice President Pence's trip to Europe. In that case, the vice president was acting more presidential than the president. Because it is obvious that Mike Pence is the vice president and not the actual president, the title was intended to display irony.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    My claim is all illegal immigrants are criminals. You can't refute it. Where did I say violent? Are you trolling?
    Pay attention. We have been discussing Trump's claim that undocumented immigrants are more likely to commit violent crime. You don't like my sources indicating it is not true, but have so far refused to post your sources it is true.

    If you cannot stick to one simple claim and a discussion of sources around that claim, I will be forced to conclude that you are indeed just trolling and go back to ignoring you. I know, that won't bother you in the slightest, but while I am inclined to engage in actual discussion with people I disagree with, I'm not inclined to spend my limited energy on trolls.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    We have been discussing Trump's claim that undocumented immigrants are more likely to commit violent crime.
    All crime. Illegals commit crimes at higher rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    If you make statements without sources or facts
    Is a fact not a fact if I do not post a link in this thread?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Pay attention. We have been discussing Trump's claim that undocumented immigrants are more likely to commit violent crime. You don't like my sources indicating it is not true, but have so far refused to post your sources it is true.

    If you cannot stick to one simple claim and a discussion of sources around that claim, I will be forced to conclude that you are indeed just trolling and go back to ignoring you. I know, that won't bother you in the slightest, but while I am inclined to engage in actual discussion with people I disagree with, I'm not inclined to spend my limited energy on trolls.
    You are the one that needs to pay attention. You obviously haven't been.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    It should be noted that the crime they committed is overstaying their visa or not obtaining a visa before entering the U.S.

    I did title a thread "President Pence meets with European Leaders" and then I added in the OP "While Trump gives a speech in Florida." - I also attached an article that detailed Vice President Pence's trip to Europe. In that case, the vice president was acting more presidential than the president. Because it is obvious that Mike Pence is the vice president and not the actual president, the title was intended to display irony.
    And that title was wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    You are the one that needs to pay attention. You obviously haven't been.

    Thank you for clarifying your intent.

    ::waves farewell::
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  13. #133
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    Too much stupid on both sides. Some of us would like to support our country not falling apart...
    Something about how I am

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    All crime. Illegals commit crimes at higher rates.



    Is a fact not a fact if I do not post a link in this thread?
    Without sources to back up your claims, your statements are as relevant as gossip.

    Your Aunt Franny may blame illegals for stealing her oranges, she may be right, she may be wrong, but without evidence her statements are just her opinions no matter how strongly she believes them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Without sources to back up your claims
    If you refuse to refute you agree with the claim.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Without sources to back up your claims, your statements are as relevant as gossip.

    Your Aunt Franny may blame illegals for stealing her oranges, she may be right, she may be wrong, but without evidence her statements are just her opinions no matter how strongly she believes them.
    Stealing oranges? Wow that was some subconscious racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    If you refuse to refute you agree with the claim.
    Burden of proof is on you.

    You made the statement, you should back it up.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    If you refuse to refute you agree with the claim.
    Freely asserted, freely dismissed.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    You made the statement, you should back it up.
    Every time a leftist refuses to refute, it backs it up even more.

  20. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Every time a leftist refuses to refute, it backs it up even more.
    Your opinion is invalid.

    What is burden of proof?

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens's_razor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Your opinion is invalid.
    Your opinion is invalid

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    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    Some of us would like to support our country not falling apart...
    Fix your foreign policy.

    Weaken your international lobbyists.

    Look back at your people.

    Abandon your military basis around the world!
    Quote Originally Posted by Avicenna
    That whose existence is necessary must necessarily be one essence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rumi
    What you are seeking is also seeking you.

  23. #143

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    While this thread left the original topic long ago, I thought it might be worth pointing ou that the claims in the original post have been shown to be false: http://www.snopes.com/democrats-stand-seal-widow/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tineren View Post
    While this thread left the original topic long ago, I thought it might be worth pointing ou that the claims in the original post have been shown to be false: http://www.snopes.com/democrats-stand-seal-widow/
    Snopes doesn't count.... they are run by a couple and have zero credibility. They've lied numerous times...
    Something about how I am

  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tineren View Post
    While this thread left the original topic long ago, I thought it might be worth pointing ou that the claims in the original post have been shown to be false: http://www.snopes.com/democrats-stand-seal-widow/
    It might be better to point out that only a leftist would deny video evidence of staying seated:


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  27. #147
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    Wow. All this manufactured outrage. It's a pity it can't be put to some better use. How about being outraged at the way some people are going to be losing health coverage?
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  28. #148
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    Health care isn't a right..... it's a consumed good.... You aren't entitled to anyones personal services or skills....
    Something about how I am

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Wow. All this manufactured outrage. It's a pity it can't be put to some better use. How about being outraged at the way some people are going to be losing health coverage?
    Like when you were failing with fake news about Flynn being with the Russian, but with recent news showed him being with Erdogan, you remained silence!

    Quote Originally Posted by Avicenna
    That whose existence is necessary must necessarily be one essence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rumi
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  30. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    Health care isn't a right..... it's a consumed good.... You aren't entitled to anyones personal services or skills....
    I think it's a good idea to have poor people see a doctor sometimes.

  31. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    I think it's a good idea to have poor people see a doctor sometimes.
    I'd concur. But the aforementioned statement is still true.

    Not having healthcare shouldn't be punished as it's a privileged service provided by another person. Now kids getting free healthcare might be another humanitarian debate all together but at the end of the day you are responsible for your own health. The gov. should make that easier with labels and warnings but they shouldn't force others to pay for it.... Those Christian scientists are having their rights violated as well as all the other religions whom don't believe in modern medicine. It's a complicated multi pronged issue where no one answer is correct. It's safe to say though universal healthcare is a pipe dream. The other end of huge profit margins is also wrong. Gov. regulation maybe? Possibly.... but mandated and paid for by tax dollars? never....
    Something about how I am

  32. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    I'd concur. But the aforementioned statement is still true.

    Not having healthcare shouldn't be punished as it's a privileged service provided by another person. Now kids getting free healthcare might be another humanitarian debate all together but at the end of the day you are responsible for your own health. The gov. should make that easier with labels and warnings but they shouldn't force others to pay for it.... Those Christian scientists are having their rights violated as well as all the other religions whom don't believe in modern medicine. It's a complicated multi pronged issue where no one answer is correct. It's safe to say though universal healthcare is a pipe dream. The other end of huge profit margins is also wrong. Gov. regulation maybe? Possibly.... but mandated and paid for by tax dollars? never....
    Things don't have to be a right to make it a good policy.

    Again, I think it's a smarter idea to have poor people see doctors for checkups. Just my opinion.

  33. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    It's safe to say though universal healthcare is a pipe dream. The other end of huge profit margins is also wrong. Gov. regulation maybe? Possibly.... but mandated and paid for by tax dollars? never....
    I'm not sure that I would call something that every other developed nation offers in one form or another a pipe dream.

    Unless you were referring specifically to implementing universal health care in the US. Given the entrenched opposition from so many stakeholders, you could be right.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  34. #154
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    I think the socialistic ideals of some of the nations work fantastic given the overall structure of their society.

    America... Not so much at all. Our system was founded.... had it's bedrock laid... and thrives on capitalism. It's why we (once) have/ had the greatest system of healthcare in the world. When we started messing with what worked just fine it became a problem. It's a multi pronged issue once again. Can't have a job that the training costs around 200k - 500k not pay well.... The job can't pay well if medical costs aren't within a reasonable area of capitalistic profiteering. It's all wrong in the grand scheme but somehow it managed to produce the (once) greatest healthcare system in the world where you got the best of the best working on you whether you had 10 million in the bank or 10$. Now it's a huge joke and I don't even bother. By the time I want to go see a doctor now whatever I had ailing me has either caused me to go to the emergency room or has cleared up.... It's a mess now. We should have just left good enough alone IMO. Bad opinion at that but it's mine...
    Something about how I am

  35. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    Health care isn't a right..... it's a consumed good.... You aren't entitled to anyones personal services or skills....
    Your statement originates from a learned deeply ingrained social meme based on Hobessian philosophy while ignoring thousands of years of previous human thought on social organizational structures that produced arguably better results when it comes to quality of life.

    You are not entitled, they have a duty to the community and each others as part of the social body politic of the human organism. The entitlement is to purpose inside the society along with moral justice, something that capitalism has had historically bad failures with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshyyy View Post
    There is some serious misquoting potential above.
    The rep system should be abolished.

  36. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirveri View Post
    Your statement originates from a learned deeply ingrained social meme based on Hobessian philosophy while ignoring thousands of years of previous human thought on social organizational structures that produced arguably better results when it comes to quality of life.

    You are not entitled, they have a duty to the community and each others as part of the social body politic of the human organism. The entitlement is to purpose inside the society along with moral justice, something that capitalism has had historically bad failures with.
    What in SJW?
    Something about how I am

  37. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    What in SJW?
    Summer
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  38. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirveri View Post
    Your statement originates from a learned deeply ingrained social meme based on Hobessian philosophy while ignoring thousands of years of previous human thought on social organizational structures that produced arguably better results when it comes to quality of life.

    You are not entitled, they have a duty to the community and each others as part of the social body politic of the human organism. The entitlement is to purpose inside the society along with moral justice, something that capitalism has had historically bad failures with.
    This is basically correct, but I'd have phrased it differently.

    The issue with the Ayn Rand position being taken by your opponent is that making healthcare a right doesn't do the same thing as enslave healthcare providers. They're no more enslaved than farmers, for example, or anyone else who produces a necessary good. In other words, if you go to countries where people have a right to healthcare -- say Canada -- and walk into a doctor's office and ask the doctor, "how does it feel to be a slave?"

    The doctor will probably refer you to a psychiatrist.

    There is a huge difference between slavery proper and giving people a generalized right to healthcare. In the former case, people doing work are individually expected to produce a certain amount and are not compensated for their efforts. In the latter case, there already exists a sufficient amount of a certain good, and there is simply a requirement regarding its distribution. Each producer can still make individual decisions without fear of interference. The "slavery" issue is hypothetical only, because the failure to produce the good only comes about if all the providers simultaneously decide not to provide, which is prevented by magic of the price mechanism. (If there isn't enough of the good, the price goes up, and producers will decide of their own volition to produce more of it.)

    The bottom line is this:
    1) There is no real conflict between the right of individual producers to make their own decisions regarding how much of a good to provide on the free market and the provision of a general right to healthcare.
    2) The basic claim that doctors have no moral responsibilities whatever to use their skills and knowledge to help people is laughable.

  39. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by RycorAbsinthe View Post
    I think the socialistic ideals of some of the nations work fantastic given the overall structure of their society.

    America... Not so much at all. Our system was founded.... had it's bedrock laid... and thrives on capitalism. It's why we (once) have/ had the greatest system of healthcare in the world. When we started messing with what worked just fine it became a problem. It's a multi pronged issue once again. Can't have a job that the training costs around 200k - 500k not pay well.... The job can't pay well if medical costs aren't within a reasonable area of capitalistic profiteering. It's all wrong in the grand scheme but somehow it managed to produce the (once) greatest healthcare system in the world where you got the best of the best working on you whether you had 10 million in the bank or 10$. Now it's a huge joke and I don't even bother. By the time I want to go see a doctor now whatever I had ailing me has either caused me to go to the emergency room or has cleared up.... It's a mess now. We should have just left good enough alone IMO. Bad opinion at that but it's mine...
    Would you rather have a system where poor people see doctors?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Burninator View Post
    2) The basic claim that doctors have no moral responsibilities whatever to use their skills and knowledge to help people is laughable.
    Now do capitalist ethics care about your life if you don't have money?

    even if the doctor wanted to help a poor for free, would the hospital allow it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Avicenna
    That whose existence is necessary must necessarily be one essence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rumi
    What you are seeking is also seeking you.

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