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Thread: Despite all our political beliefs... Do we all see this as wrong?

  1. #81
    Consul Rokchick's Avatar
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    Oh for goodness sake. Hillary was investigated time and time again.
    If I'm wrong (about what? All I'm saying is you need to know and stop ignoring it) I'll be pleased. I don't think the world needs a disgraced USA.

    We knew about the wiretaps in January. It was plastered all over. The various security groups spread it widely so that it couldn't be shut down quietly by the new administration. But breitbart posted about them yesterday and Donnie tweets. See where he gets his news from? How can you be happy about that? Like most others I didn't like Hillaries connection with big business. But now we have mr big business himself, employing the swampiest of types. How is that better?
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

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    Philosopher н-υ-п-т-ε-я's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    What if you are wrong? During the election whenever anyone brought up HRC's illegal activity everyone said she did nothing, after the election everyone said two wrongs don't make a right and continue to make false accusations with no proof and demand impeachment.
    yes they were pushing everything away from the leaked podesta emails, so they don't get coverage, and let all the people believe that the DNC is the good people.



    Russia is always a topic for election, nothing else!
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    What you are seeking is also seeking you.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    We knew about the wiretaps in January.
    Not the illegal ones. They tried to wiretap Trump but the judge said no. They came back later with Trump removed from the wiretap request and the judge allowed it. Obama was wiretapping Trump illegally.

  4. #84
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    Oh for goodness sake. Hillary was investigated time and time again.
    If I'm wrong (about what? All I'm saying is you need to know and stop ignoring it) I'll be pleased. I don't think the world needs a disgraced USA.

    We knew about the wiretaps in January. It was plastered all over. The various security groups spread it widely so that it couldn't be shut down quietly by the new administration. But breitbart posted about them yesterday and Donnie tweets. See where he gets his news from? How can you be happy about that? Like most others I didn't like Hillaries connection with big business. But now we have mr big business himself, employing the swampiest of types. How is that better?
    She was? By who?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Not the illegal ones. They tried to wiretap Trump but the judge said no. They came back later with Trump removed from the wiretap request and the judge allowed it. Obama was wiretapping Trump illegally.
    Evidence?

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Evidence?
    For?

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    For?
    Your claim.

  8. #88
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Your claim.
    Are you refuting?

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Are you refuting?
    Until I see the facts, I'll remain skeptical.

  10. #90
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Until I see the facts, I'll remain skeptical.
    it's funny. You aren't skeptical of claims against your president (Trump is our president, not Pence) without facts. Liberal privilege ftw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    it's funny. You aren't skeptical of claims against your president (Trump is our president, not Pence) without facts. Liberal privilege ftw.
    Unfortunately, your president has a documented history of lying and fabricating 'alternative facts.' I'd want evidence - hard evidence, not a few anecdotes - about anything he alleges.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  12. #92
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    Can you provide some facts? No one else seems to be able to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    Can you provide some facts? No one else seems to be able to.
    Facts about what? Which lie? Which falsification? I'm certainly not going to go through everything he's said that's been wrong.

    Fortunately, here's a journalist who has done it for you on one of his lies.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ump-fact-check
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  14. #94
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    I'd want evidence - hard evidence, not a few anecdotes - about anything he alleges.
    Unfortunately, Obama has a documented history of wiretapping not only his opponents, but his allies, the press, investigating the press, including naming the press as criminal co-conspirators, using drones to kill American citizens, etc, etc, etc. None of this, you or even Obama spokesman denied today as they spoke about the issue over and over.

    There is reality and there is what leftists think. The two rarely coincide.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Unfortunately, Obama has a documented history of wiretapping not only his opponents, but his allies, the press, investigating the press, including naming the press as criminal co-conspirators, using drones to kill American citizens, etc, etc, etc. None of this, you or even Obama spokesman denied today as they spoke about the issue over and over.

    There is reality and there is what leftists think. The two rarely coincide.
    I haven't read the news today til I went looking for something on Trump's documented lies.

    Haven't researched anything either side has said about wiretapping. Yet. I may or I may not, I am selective about the amount of time I spend on American news stories.

    Fir what it's worth, when I read a news story, i don't bother with the typical web-based articles that just report that soneone said x and someone else said y. I look for articles with in-depth research and analysis that give context, background and sources, links to supporting documents or background. I find some of the British news websites good for international stories (including American stories( and there are a few Canadian sites I look at for context and detail on Canadian stories.

    I assume as a matter of course that the pronouncements of all politicians should be fact-checked.

    I am amused by people who think I am some sort of Obama or Clinton supporter. I'm a radical socialist/syndicalist remember? A real one, not what Americans think is a socialist. I don't support liberals, neo-liberals, or neo-cons. Obama was a capitalist lackey and an imperialist war-monger just like every American president I can remember, who did some good things on social issues. I thought Clinton would have been much the same. I don't really care who lies more. I just observe that the people who couldn't even believe a man's birth certificate when he displayed it publicly now believe everything that comes out of the Trump office without even batting an eye, and I note the extreme hypocrisy of that.

    Don't bother trying to use Obama's actions, or Clinton's, alleged or proven, as some sort of excuse for what Trump is doing. You just sound like children whining to their parents that "Johnny did it, why can't I?"

    Justify Trump's words and actions on their own merits or lack thereof.
    Last edited by Meherrin; 03-04-2017 at 09:22 PM.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  16. #96
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Justify Trump's words and actions on their own merits or lack thereof.
    Obama has done that by having his spokesmen come out today and not deny it. Not one of them claimed the opposite of Trump.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Obama has done that by having his spokesmen come out today and not deny it. Not one of them claimed the opposite of Trump.
    Haven't read anything about it yet, and may not. But if Trump and his people were conferring with foreign agents, and there was any reason to believe it was about the campaign or making deals or agreements about what might happen should Trump win, that might be actionable in law and thus should be investigated. So not denying an investigation isn't necessarily vindicating Trump.

    Nothing's going to be resolved without due investigation.

    Maybe the US needs to ask the UN in to conduct an investigation of the election if they can't trust their own intelligence and police agencies.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  18. #98
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Haven't read anything about it yet, and may not.
    It would be best to stay in your leftist bubble free from bad news about Obama.

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    It would be best to stay in your leftist bubble free from bad news about Obama.
    You really don't know how to read, do you?

    Actually, I just read reportage from Louise Mensch from last fall about the granting of a FISA warrant to investigate Trump's team for suspected dealings with agents of Russia. The warrant may have included authorisation for wiretapping.

    The DOJ or one of the intelligence agencies must have had something that convinced the FISA Court to issue the warrant for investigation.

    It's been interesting chatting with you, cofc, but if you insist on doing this silly Obama-baiting with me, I think i'll put you back on ignore. Your comments are just as irrelevant as ever. No matter how much you hate Obama, it's not going to make me change my opinion and suddenly support him.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Actually, I just read reportage from Louise Mensch from last fall about the granting of a FISA warrant to investigate Trump's team
    Mensch is fake news, I would watch out for that thing.

  21. #101
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    The guardian? I thought you said you wanted hard evidence?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  22. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    The guardian? I thought you said you wanted hard evidence?
    The Guardian is one of the few major independent English-language news organisations left in the world. It's got a very good reputation for accuracy in reporting.

    What would you consider a reliable news source?
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  23. #103
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    The Guardian is one of the few major independent news orgabisations keft in the world. It's got a very good reputation for accuracy in reporting.
    Haha. Is this satire?

  24. #104
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    The Guardian is one of the few major independent English-language news organisations left in the world. It's got a very good reputation for accuracy in reporting.

    What would you consider a reliable news source?
    I think your cat jumped on the keyboard. Wikileaks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  25. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    I think your cat jumped on the keyboard. Wikileaks.
    Wikileaks is a news organisation?

    Anyway, continuing with the same topic, what about any of these links?

    Both contemporary and historical stud- ies, including official crime statistics and victimization surveys since the early 1990s, data from the last three decennial censuses, national and regional surveys in areas of immigrant concentration, and investigations carried out by major government commissions over the past century, have shown instead that immigration is associated with lower crime rates and lower incarceration rates.

    https://www.policefoundation.org/wp-...pendix-D_0.pdf
    Recent social science research underscores that the relationship between immigration and crime or terrorism is likely the opposite of what Trump seems to believe.

    "[I]mmigrants are less, not more, criminal than nonimmigrants" and "immigration rates are largely unassociated with crime rates," according to a 2002 analysis of immigration-crime studies. It continues: "It is the least reliable and useful sources of data that are used to support arguments about the link between immigration and crime."

    http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...cessary-2017-3
    Or are we going to discover that you consider any source that contradicts Trump as unreliable, and only accept sources that say the same things he does?
    Last edited by Meherrin; 03-05-2017 at 12:08 AM.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  26. #106
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Wikileaks is a news organisation?
    If the Guardian is.

  27. #107
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    Can you show me one instance where wikileaks had to retract anything they have put out? Will major "news" organizations look as good in comparison? I will wait while you research it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  28. #108

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    Wikileaks is exactly what it says it us, a clearing house for leaks. I'm not disputing the material they release as potential primary sources fir journalists among other investigators, i'm just saying they aren't a news organisation.

    But if you insist, let's see reportage or data from Wikileaks demonstrating that immigrants commit more crime than native born Americans.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  29. #109
    Philosopher cofc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    But if you insist, let's see reportage or data from Wikileaks demonstrating that immigrants commit more crime than native born Americans.
    Why? The argument has always been illegal immigrants commit crime at a higher rate.

  30. #110
    Consul The Blazin1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Wikileaks is exactly what it says it us, a clearing house for leaks. I'm not disputing the material they release as potential primary sources fir journalists among other investigators, i'm just saying they aren't a news organisation.

    But if you insist, let's see reportage or data from Wikileaks demonstrating that immigrants commit more crime than native born Americans.
    Immigrants? No, but illegal immigrants, which we are discussing, have done something illegal. 100%, you must admit that's a high rate right? You don't disagree with that do you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    Immigrants? No, but illegal immigrants, which we are discussing, have done something illegal. 100%, you must admit that's a high rate right? You don't disagree with that do you?
    Ignoring that crime they still commit crimes at a higher rate.

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Ignoring that crime they still commit crimes at a higher rate.
    Bear with me, baby steps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron D'Holbach View Post
    You should quote yourself. It's like liking your Facebook status or high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

    It's what I would do if I didn't have to keep mine exactly how it is for madsquirrels and erazer.

  33. #113
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    Undocumented workers and immigrants are still subject to most of the rights under your constitution. Threatening them, and harassing them should be illegal. For a country built on immigration, you sure seem to misunderstand it. I'm not entirely sure why you care so much though. Almost every study ever done shows the economy benefits from immigration. They commit less crimes and are prepared to do jobs the locals won't. If they were always paid properly, your economy would get another boost. Deport the criminals, and make your borders more secure, sure. Build a wall - ridiculous. But the quickest way to slow mexican immigration is to build the mexican economy up. Putting a tariff on mexican goods will do the opposite, and increase the lure of illegal immigration. It's not rocket science. They come for jobs.

    The whole call to arms on immigration is a call to baseless fears. But it works, and that's why the pollies do it. Baseless fears win elections. Clearly.

    But I'm waiting for your information sources blaze, and still for your stand on the investigation into russian involvement. And on what should happen to those who got pally with the russians before the election. Post election there is very little anyone can do. All the conversations will probably be subject to diplomatic stuff. If all of the pre-election discussions were about business, prove it. Hard, I know when donnie kept saying he had no business with them, but it's better than treason.
    I'm glad I'm not judgemental like all you smug, superficial idiots

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokchick View Post
    They commit less crimes
    Illegals commit crimes at a higher rate. Your statement is false.

  35. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blazin1 View Post
    Immigrants? No, but illegal immigrants, which we are discussing, have done something illegal. 100%, you must admit that's a high rate right? You don't disagree with that do you?
    Trump has specifically stated that undocumented immigrants commit more violent crime. Proof, please, from a source We both agree is legitimate.
    And now I'll tell you what's against us, an art that's lived for centuries. Go through the years and you will find what's blackened all of history. Against us is the law with its immensity of strength and power - against us is the law! Police know how to make a man a guilty or an innocent. Against us is the power of police! The shameless lies that men have told will ever more be paid in gold - against us is the power of the gold! Against us is racial hatred and the simple fact that we are poor.
    - The Ballad of Sacco and Vanzetti, Joan Baez

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meherrin View Post
    Trump has specifically stated that undocumented immigrants commit more violent crime.
    He said illegals commit crimes at a higher rate (which is an objective fact). This is not in dispute (see how you are not disputing it?).

  37. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    He said illegals commit crimes at a higher rate (which is an objective fact). This is not in dispute (see how you are not disputing it?).
    The crime being overstaying a visa.

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    The crime being overstaying a visa.
    Most illegals did not "overstay a visa." Removing that or illegally being in the country still leaves illegals committing more crimes at a higher rate.

  39. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by cofc View Post
    Most illegals did not "overstay a visa." Removing that or illegally being in the country still leaves illegals committing more crimes at a higher rate.
    You have data for that claim?

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    You have data for that claim?
    This happens every single time. The fact that illegals commit crimes at a higher rate is presented. A leftist then tries to say b-but legal immigrants. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate. Are you refuting it?

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