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  1. #81
    Consul Kurtz's Avatar
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    Clulisss!

    Re.: spies.

    No one steals something that is given to them. They are added to an alliance and their chat and receive MM's and messages due to that.

    The fact that they then pass them on does not mean that they stole them. I'm surprised that you, as a law student, don't understand that.

    I have yet to be in an alliance that makes you sign a non-disclosure agreement. But who knows... maybe you are the first leader to be that anal. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

    --
    Re.: Natar win.

    I did say try thinking didn't I?

    Think of it as this. I know that this is taking it to the limits, but that is mathematics for you. Or calculus at least.

    If you are a WW alliance, you build only nice cheap anvil troops. You then store the anvil troops at half wheat. Trade routes mean that you cannot fail to feed them unless your grasp of mathematics is below.... dunce level.

    If you are a Natar win alliance, you build expensive siege and lots of expensive (as compared with their attack) horsies. Even inf D is cheap with respect to their power. Most people do not store those at half wheat. Raiding helps, but at endgame, most farms are tapped to almost zero all the bloody time.

    And this is not even thinking about the difference between building troops out of multiple villages or anything like that. You know that time factor. And GB/ GS's.

    Please don't tell me that you need me to explain this further. I really didn't think I would have to explain this to you, but there you go. I over estimated you.
    Last edited by Kurtz; 02-06-2017 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Tenses matter!

  2. #82
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Kurtz I will not engage you if you are calling me names and riddle your posts with jabs at me. I'm trying to follow rules of this thread and generally just avoid that.

    Especially with you, I know I had a habit of going at you just as much as you did with me back in the day, but I truly have no interest in it any longer.
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  3. #83
    Consul Kurtz's Avatar
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    So basically you're admitting that you're wrong.

  4. #84
    Senator Cisalpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    We just can't get past the bashing, can we?

    I'm done with this thread.
    There was no bashing at all, but simple discussion. I'M done with y'all whining about being picked on all the time. No one can say anything without being accused of "bashing". AFTER your post above things went downhill. I don't think I've ever played against such a crybaby alliance in all my years in Travian. EVERY server has it's trolls. You'd think by now y'all would have thicker skin.
    The ORIGINALCisalpine! Retired


    http://forum.travian.us/showthread.php?t=95436 for the Awesome Natar Win
    http://forum.travian.us/showthread.php?t=93085 For US S1 history

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pile of Pandas View Post
    I'm done with this thread.
    As you wish...

    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    leading by example are some of the best attributes of a good leader.
    It's a shame we haven't seen this. Tell Kurtz about the multi, botting and IP tracking allegations...

  6. #86
    Consul Kurtz's Avatar
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    I love having multi's, bots and other cheaters in my alliance. Means that as soon as I have it vaguely proved to me (I don't need 100% proof like MH does), my members' accounts suddenly find themselves with an extra, fully developed village or 3.

  7. #87

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    That's how I'd do it. Unfortunately for GONE (Gods of the North East) that didn't happen and as a result their MH account deleted and catted a leader's cap on the way out. His members are down a village and his alliance is down a top 10 account and EGH.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    Also, VM, Enya denies your claim about trying to spy outright. Says he never spoke to Cis privately.
    Below is 1 post where he asked to join our team (through Cis). I added a second one where Cis called him out for sending her a message (can't remember if on forum or in game). You can read a few posts around the same time, and maybe now it will jog Enya's memory (and yours, you were very active during the same convo)

    http://forum.travian.us/showthread.p...=1#post2777915

    http://forum.travian.us/showthread.p...=1#post2777924

    Quote Originally Posted by Cisalpine View Post
    There was no bashing at all, but simple discussion. I'M done with y'all whining about being picked on all the time. No one can say anything without being accused of "bashing". AFTER your post above things went downhill. I don't think I've ever played against such a crybaby alliance in all my years in Travian.
    Unfortunately, I suspect they will further complain that I am bashing them because I posted clear proof that somebody on their team tried to spy and then lied about it (and failed on both fronts)

  9. #89

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    It's like 2012 all over again....

    Quote Originally Posted by Erbal View Post
    [Luisss]The way you are acting, and your history of being oversensitive

  10. #90
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
    So basically you're admitting that you're wrong.
    The question of whether or not a natar win is easier or more difficult than a WW win is inherently subjective. I do not really think there is a right or wrong answer.

    VM, where does Cis reference a PM she received from enya in those two posts? Enya said he received a PM from cis that he never responded to. I'm not seeing where he tried to spy, or even asked to join Cis' group in either post, either.

    This was also before GONE had formed. So I'm not sure how this situation which may or not have been someone trying to spy = GONE trying to spy.
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  11. #91

  12. #92

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    So just so I'm following along right, the standard is that it's not spying if the information is given, but the act of one player in GONE before GONE was formed is an indictment on the entire alliance.

    We could have just summed that up with one sentence rather than arguing in circles for 10 pages.

  13. #93
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    it's not spying if the information is given.
    It's not stealing, as in theft of information. No-one can take knowledge away from you; it can only be shared to third parties. Especially in your alliance's case where the information is basically lying out there in the open. It's still spying since the information is being passed to unintended recipients.

    Try to keep up.

    Where the 10-page argument comes in is, GONE seems to think that they have the moral high ground since they don't use spies. BTDT (and every single other major alliance in the existence of Travian) argues that this isn't a moral argument; it's a video game, and as long as the rules of the game are followed spies are just another tool offered by the game.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

    [7:32 AM] Jason (Al Bundy raidslave): Who the **** loses an arti to 18 phalanx
    [7:32 AM] Old Timer US1: The same faction that loses one to 66 legos

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    Try to keep up.
    Comedy gold. I can keep up just fine.

    Spies are part of the game largely because people from certain alliances have such a large presence on these forums, and they spin nonstop propaganda that seeks out the weak to exploit them for their own gain. Well, maybe not all spy accounts started that way, but I do know that quite a few have.

    So of course they are going to argue that it's not a moral argument. They're just PMing players and asking them to drop tag and attack leadership, pass on information, and become a spy for them because they are just great people that really care about some anonymous poster on a message board.

  15. #95
    Consul Lurk's Avatar
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    Why can't it be both? If I'm the COO of a great company, and there's a company that makes similar products down the road, and I sincerely believe that the other company is a crappy one that abuses its employees, then I can certainly see where my motivations in recruiting from that company would be mixed - I want to help those employees get into a better situation, and I want to get their talent and experience on board to help drive the abusive company out of business.

    Try to think win-win, here. That's the kind of thinking that makes solid alliance leadership; you'll get to experience that someday.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

    [7:32 AM] Jason (Al Bundy raidslave): Who the **** loses an arti to 18 phalanx
    [7:32 AM] Old Timer US1: The same faction that loses one to 66 legos

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    because people from certain alliances have such a large presence on these forums
    Because people from certain alliances have ongoing conversations about cheating, botch all their ops and act like noobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    spin nonstop propaganda that seeks out the weak to exploit them for their own gain.
    I'm sure the spies will appreciate you calling them weak and exploited. It should strengthen their resolve and reassure them that they made the right decision.

    I for one appreciate their moral stance. Their like the French resistance or American Revolutionaries.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    I'm sure the spies will appreciate you calling them weak and exploited. It should strengthen their resolve and reassure them that they made the right decision.
    You expect me to feel guilt over calling a dishonest person weak and exploited?

    And you appreciating their "moral stance" just proves my point that these people are being used.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    You expect me to feel guilt over calling a dishonest person weak and exploited?
    I don't expect you to feel guilt at all. It's an emotion purely beyond the grasp of the "in group" of GONE as demonstrated by your daily "jokes" of IP tracking.

    I love how you categorize those who are uncomfortable with this as dishonest.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    And you appreciating their "moral stance" just proves my point that these people are being used.
    Funny... JD said the same about those uncomfortable with his noobishness, rants, incest and pedo jokes before they abandoned him.

    Respect and loyalty are things that are earned. You are not entitled to them because you built an embassy.

    In GONE these players are expected to build Luisss an unnecessary Level 20 TC before pushing resources and defense to a World Wonder that only serves as his redemption. Meanwhile expected to turn a blind eye to unsavory behavior. With me they're offered defense, resources, freedom to play as they like, advice and friendship.

    To GONE they're a number and a farm.
    To the 007s they're a person and family.
    Last edited by Lord Bane; 02-07-2017 at 02:36 AM.

  19. #99
    Consul Kurtz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    The question of whether or not a natar win is easier or more difficult than a WW win is inherently subjective.
    No. It really isn't. It is simple mathematics.

  20. #100
    Consul Kurtz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilAnse View Post
    Cthey spin nonstop propaganda
    War game. Propaganda is part of the art of war. Not anyone else's fault that you aren't good at it.

  21. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpackrats View Post
    LOL
    Hello there, old friend. I was hoping you were still around despite you not responding to my doorbell ringing. We are having an ice cream social down the street if you want to come over, no need to feel like a frightened squirrel. Thinking about starting an annual eating contest for this event. What do you think about the name, "3-scoop scarf down!"? First person to finish three full scoops wins the prize. All contestants will be given a warm beverage of their choosing after the race to help with brain freeze.

    Between us, the real secret to removing brain freeze is to firmly press your tongue to the roof of your mouth and it is not against competition rules to do so. Just be careful who you tell this to as some competitive eaters consider this a magician's secret. (wink face)

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpackrats View Post
    Can information be considered stolen when it is outright just given to people???????
    Hard to say without further context, but I find the topic interesting in general. I don't want to assume there is a specific reference you are making about this server but to keep this within the confines of Travian I would say that stolen is a word that should be defined with some perspective.

    For example, if I went into a real world casino and profited from hands played where I could see the dealer's cards then I could be prosecuted if found guilty. It would be argued that no matter if I intentionally scammed them or accidentally saw the dealer's cards in a reflection of some kind, I used my leverage of knowledge to steal money from a business I am entering in agreements with.

    In Travian, the embassy sticky explains that these lines are much blurrier so stolen doesn't necessarily mean illegal or immoral.

    Now, if you are asking about a situation where someone just randomly messages you with sensitive info that you had no idea was coming then I would say you did not steal that info. Also, I am not suggesting that Travian players should discard given information they believe to be true or deliberately avoid a chance to profit from intel received.

    Lets say I was at war with a group of three people and two of them wanted to destroy me. The third person does not but decides instead of communicating this to their two comrades they will give no indication of discontent and simply try to botch their group's attack op by sending data to me showing where real and fake attacks will be landing. I don't think I should be to blame for defending myself based on given info that I believe to be true, but in that situation I would not classify my victory as one from personal skill or attribute an ability to read my opponent as the root cause for preventing personal loss in that particular battle.

    In the above scenario the third person that spilled the beans didn't break any Travian governed rules that I am aware of but I would consider that to be immoral behavior.

    To be even more clear, I do not consider someone joining a Travian alliance in game on a particular server with the sole intention of spying from start to finish to be immoral. I am not even here to pose the argument that an opponent trying to flip their adversary's muscle is immoral. I think certain responsibilities really do fall onto the individual. Listening is a vital skill for leadership, but communication is necessary by all parties in a game that is based heavily on numbers and text.
    What can be broken, must be broken.

  22. #102
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
    No. It really isn't. It is simple mathematics.
    The difficulty of any given task can be different from person to person. Some people may find coordinating offense easy, but coordinating defense difficult.

    Given this, what mathematics do you think make it so clear cut?
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  23. #103
    Consul Kurtz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    The difficulty of any given task can be different from person to person. Some people may find coordinating offense easy, but coordinating defense difficult.

    Given this, what mathematics do you think make it so clear cut?
    Lol. You really are grasping at straws here aren't you? But hey, if you admit that your OC sucks, that's fine with me.

  24. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by nichmanic View Post
    Hello there, old friend. I was hoping you were still around despite you not responding to my doorbell ringing. We are having an ice cream social down the street if you want to come over, no need to feel like a frightened squirrel. Thinking about starting an annual eating contest for this event. What do you think about the name, "3-scoop scarf down!"? First person to finish three full scoops wins the prize. All contestants will be given a warm beverage of their choosing after the race to help with brain freeze.

    Between us, the real secret to removing brain freeze is to firmly press your tongue to the roof of your mouth and it is not against competition rules to do so. Just be careful who you tell this to as some competitive eaters consider this a magician's secret. (wink face)
    hmmm,,,,, only if I can top my scoops with MAPLE SYRUP.

    But my battery in my doorbell is dead. Maybe just send some company over for a visit.
    Usx: crybaby or S.I.M.P. when I play.
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  25. #105
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
    Lol. You really are grasping at straws here aren't you? But hey, if you admit that your OC sucks, that's fine with me.
    I asked you a question. What am I grasping at???

    You say whether or not a natar win is more difficult is simple mathematics. What are those mathematics?
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  26. #106

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    Kurtz our dear snowflake has basically been a dictator this round. He took over planning and required his five village accounts to build Level 20 TCs but doesn't let them share artfacts. He appointed himself as OC and on 12/05/16 lost eleven hammers in four minutes. Not to be detered he then took over defense. 12/19/16 Lulu lost five capitals in an hour and 12/31/16 he lost six capitals, three arties and two hammers on his birthday. Since then there have been so many chiefed hammers, crop locked caps and botched ops we stopped tracking and instead started #FreeLack.

    Lack was their old DC and actually presented a challenge that we miss.

  27. #107
    Consul Kurtz's Avatar
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    Oh so their DC's suck just as much as their OC's. Gotcha.

    Clulisss, the mathematics is basic game mechanics. I already explained that to you. I am not going to repeat myself ad nauseam just because you're unwilling or unable to read.

  28. #108
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
    Clulisss, the mathematics is basic game mechanics. I already explained that to you. I am not going to repeat myself ad nauseam just because you're unwilling or unable to read.
    Why do you insist on riddling every post with insults?

    You have yet to explain anything in this thread, game mechanics or otherwise. You've simply said "I'm right, you're wrong, why do I have to keep explaining this". What is it, mathematically, about a natar win goal that you think so clearly makes it harder than a normal WW run?
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  29. #109

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    We have posted a few times why it is a lot more difficult. You just refuse to budge from your point. Anybody who has done a WW win and a Natar win will point out that a Natar win is a lot more difficult, but since it is an opinion, you won't budge.

    Like I said, somebody might find settling a second village difficult. You find building a WW difficult, we do not. We have players who have pulled it off by simply deciding to do it half way into the server.

    Next topic!

    1) Is anybody on the map safe from BTDT?
    2) Why cant GONE even catapult tiny 3-4 village players that are in the NE successfully? Who is their OC? Is Lack back or not?

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    Why do you insist on riddling every post with insults?

    You have yet to explain anything in this thread, game mechanics or otherwise. You've simply said "I'm right, you're wrong, why do I have to keep explaining this". What is it, mathematically, about a natar win goal that you think so clearly makes it harder than a normal WW run?
    Resources spent on the sandcastle and feeding the troops therein (even at half wheat, if you have enough scouts in there to block a 10K scout run this early....holy ****balls, batman)

    The supply routes required to do so are simply enormous. Not once have I/we asked for wheat to rein our account (I think a few people send a bit anyway, but that's just our anvils being badass at what they do). Last serious op running against us we were almost -100K in our capital. Never asked for wheat. Never had to. Never had a starve. What we did get, though, was a splat on our walls.
    Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit.

    [7:32 AM] Jason (Al Bundy raidslave): Who the **** loses an arti to 18 phalanx
    [7:32 AM] Old Timer US1: The same faction that loses one to 66 legos

  31. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    Why do you insist on riddling every post with insults?
    Maybe because you have for months?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    You've simply said "I'm right, you're wrong, why do I have to keep explaining this"
    Again just like you have for months?

    I feel you find Kurtz frustrating because he uses your tactics against you. When he posts you're forced to look upon a reflection of yourself and can't bear it...

  32. #112
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    Maybe because you have for months?
    No, I haven't, and anyway I'm pretty sure an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    I feel you find Kurtz frustrating because he uses your tactics against you.
    I do not treat other people like Kurtz has acted towards me these past few days.
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  33. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    No, I haven't, and anyway I'm pretty sure an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind..
    Really? Wasn't there something posted in the last day about needing to "defend" yourself? The need to go tit for tat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    I do not treat other people like Kurtz has acted towards me these past few days.
    You're right. You treat people worse...

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    Really? Wasn't there something posted in the last day about needing to "defend" yourself?
    Defending yourself is the same as attacking others in what world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bane View Post
    You're right. You treat people worse...
    You don't actually believe this, why bother saying it? What are you trying to accomplish here?
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  35. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    I do not treat other people like Kurtz has acted towards me these past few days.
    And yet, a neutral party like the MH has had to edit your teammate's profile for being over the top offensive.

    Again, not saying Kurtz is being nice to you, but he is probably frustrated you are still arguing personal opinion when all facts show he is correct. However, can GONE stop complaining about bashing/being offensive until their own team fixes it? And yes, I know, it was a "rogue" account and does not represent GONE, the standard BS reply will come. Doesn't change the facts that your stuff was so offensive, it had to be edited/removed.

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious_Machine View Post
    And yet, a neutral party like the MH has had to edit your teammate's profile for being over the top offensive.
    What does that, even if it is true, have to do with me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious_Machine View Post
    Again, not saying Kurtz is being nice to you, but he is probably frustrated you are still arguing personal opinion when all facts show he is correct.
    I've simply A) stated my opinion, and B) asked him questions about his. I'm not shouting that I'm right, I am trying to understand why he thinks what he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious_Machine View Post
    However, can GONE stop complaining about bashing/being offensive until their own team fixes it? And yes, I know, it was a "rogue" account and does not represent GONE, the standard BS reply will come. Doesn't change the facts that your stuff was so offensive, it had to be edited/removed.
    What did the village even say? Do you know for sure it was Edited by MH or maybe she just made it that name herself? I see now you're talking about sunshine.
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

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  37. #117
    Consul Kurtz's Avatar
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    *Yawn* do I need to quote myself?

  38. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious_Machine View Post
    And yet, a neutral party like the MH has had to edit your teammate's profile for being over the top offensive.
    Which account are you talking about?

  39. #119
    Consul Luisss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
    *Yawn* do I need to quote myself?
    This is the only quote from you I can see where you mention your reasoning at all:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
    Re.: Natar win.

    I did say try thinking didn't I?

    Think of it as this. I know that this is taking it to the limits, but that is mathematics for you. Or calculus at least.

    If you are a WW alliance, you build only nice cheap anvil troops. You then store the anvil troops at half wheat. Trade routes mean that you cannot fail to feed them unless your grasp of mathematics is below.... dunce level.

    If you are a Natar win alliance, you build expensive siege and lots of expensive (as compared with their attack) horsies. Even inf D is cheap with respect to their power. Most people do not store those at half wheat. Raiding helps, but at endgame, most farms are tapped to almost zero all the bloody time.

    And this is not even thinking about the difference between building troops out of multiple villages or anything like that. You know that time factor. And GB/ GS's.

    Please don't tell me that you need me to explain this further. I really didn't think I would have to explain this to you, but there you go. I over estimated you.
    Is this what you're referencing?

    Because so much more goes into a WW run than just building defense troops and setting up trade routes. You know this. Something you also don't appear to have considered are that even though we are against BTDT, whose goal is to force a natar win, we still have to use/build hammers. So, basically:

    Both alliances have to build hammers, defense, and defend/capture friendly and enemy artifacts, respectively. The only tangible difference I can see is that you guys do not have a WW to defend/feed or plans to protect, which is why, IMO, it is more difficult to do a normal WW run, especially in server sizes where we are now down to 60 accounts. Am I missing a difference? If so, which?
    US1 - Redemption. US2 - Luisss.

    "Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit."

  40. #120

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    The point has to do with your team Luis. You cannot complain about what Kurtz is doing when your own teammates do way worse. And this argument about "one rogue account" or "its not me" is getting old now.

    You can ask Sunshine herself what she had there, and why the MH had to edit it. Obviously, given she is GONE, she might lie, or you guys might use some semantics to pretend it didn't happen, like when I caught enya lying (he even pretended he was on a different account to get into our wing, and you still pretend he did not want to spy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luisss View Post
    especially in server sizes where we are now down to 60 accounts.
    That is because you have lots so many accounts. Still, we were doing it on us4 with mid 30 accounts, against a team that was about 100. That is how easy it is.
    Last edited by Vicious_Machine; 02-07-2017 at 02:30 PM.

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